400 vs newer
- Thread starter Cadillac Bob
- Start date
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DonYukon
Dont stop until it sounds expensive
honestly the black truck is the most reliable vehicle ive ever owned. and ive put it through hell
So many reasons.
Simplicity.
I can find the parts anywhere in North or South America and fix it in the parking lot of the parts store or on the side of the road.
Sure, heated seats would be nice.
But not for 70 to 80 grand.
I dont need a backup camera to get under a trailer.
Ive towed a heck off a lot of boats and Ive never hit one.
I use the boot and rock method.
Backup untill you are close. Get out, see how far it is from the end of your boot.
Get back in the cab and drop a rock or a stick or whatever straight down.
Keep the door open, Stare straight down at the mark. Dont move your eyes.
Put it in reverse and back it up the same distance you saw on your boot.
Its an eyeball thing but with a bit a practice you will be about one inch off of center and one inch short.
Bump it back the one inch. Stick a 2x4 under the tongue if you are wimpy.
Use your legs if you are stupid and expect your spine to last forever.
Wrestle it on while you crank the tongue down onto the ball.
Many, many trailers have been towed without backup cameras.
It is just a skill like any other that takes a bit of practice.
Vehicle manufacturers are selling insanely expensive technollogy designed to make you think that you dont need to know these things.
Like it is some arcane lost skill that you cant possibly do on your own.
What utter and complete manipulative nonsense.
The world will not end because you cant back up a trailer.
You just need to practice it.
Reliability.
If Im carrying the list of spares you should never leave home without,
I can fix it in the woods or on the side of a mountain.
It does what I need it to do. It starts and stops and it drives and it tows.
And at some point you younger guys need to draw a line that keeps you from selling your cars and trucks.
They will end up being worth a whole lot more money than you think they are right now.
But it needs to be a option loaded goodAnd condition truck.
If you have one, keep it spotless.
It will out preform the stock market over the next ten years.
And my other trigger for this rant is dreams.
Have you ever had a dream where you still owned one of your old cars?
I have. A couple of times.
In my dream I still own my 1969 Roadrunner 383 4 barrel facotory tach bucket console car that I drove in highschool
Bought it for 200 bucks.
Sold it for 800 bucks.
And I woke up all hungover and drifty headed and ....
Nope.
Got some Nissans and some VW dubs.
Well ****.
Dont bother booking a flight to come up and kick my ass for being stupid.
It is all being taken care of locally.
Buy really good cars and trucks.
Buy the best ones you can and maintain them.
The automotive world is changeing fast and we are looking at a ban on combustion engines.
Buy the absolute best option loaded GMT400 you can find.
But chase the Square Bodies first.
That time might have passed but if you can get a solid square body with a carb snap it up.
And, if you are ever with someone and you have done everything you can think of for them...
But it comes down to your cat or your dog or your freinds or your family.
Or them?
Kick that ******** out.
Keep the dog, keep the cat, keep the car.
loose the *******.
Simplicity.
I can find the parts anywhere in North or South America and fix it in the parking lot of the parts store or on the side of the road.
Sure, heated seats would be nice.
But not for 70 to 80 grand.
I dont need a backup camera to get under a trailer.
Ive towed a heck off a lot of boats and Ive never hit one.
I use the boot and rock method.
Backup untill you are close. Get out, see how far it is from the end of your boot.
Get back in the cab and drop a rock or a stick or whatever straight down.
Keep the door open, Stare straight down at the mark. Dont move your eyes.
Put it in reverse and back it up the same distance you saw on your boot.
Its an eyeball thing but with a bit a practice you will be about one inch off of center and one inch short.
Bump it back the one inch. Stick a 2x4 under the tongue if you are wimpy.
Use your legs if you are stupid and expect your spine to last forever.
Wrestle it on while you crank the tongue down onto the ball.
Many, many trailers have been towed without backup cameras.
It is just a skill like any other that takes a bit of practice.
Vehicle manufacturers are selling insanely expensive technollogy designed to make you think that you dont need to know these things.
Like it is some arcane lost skill that you cant possibly do on your own.
What utter and complete manipulative nonsense.
The world will not end because you cant back up a trailer.
You just need to practice it.
Reliability.
If Im carrying the list of spares you should never leave home without,
I can fix it in the woods or on the side of a mountain.
It does what I need it to do. It starts and stops and it drives and it tows.
And at some point you younger guys need to draw a line that keeps you from selling your cars and trucks.
They will end up being worth a whole lot more money than you think they are right now.
But it needs to be a option loaded goodAnd condition truck.
If you have one, keep it spotless.
It will out preform the stock market over the next ten years.
And my other trigger for this rant is dreams.
Have you ever had a dream where you still owned one of your old cars?
I have. A couple of times.
In my dream I still own my 1969 Roadrunner 383 4 barrel facotory tach bucket console car that I drove in highschool
Bought it for 200 bucks.
Sold it for 800 bucks.
And I woke up all hungover and drifty headed and ....
Nope.
Got some Nissans and some VW dubs.
Well ****.
Dont bother booking a flight to come up and kick my ass for being stupid.
It is all being taken care of locally.
Buy really good cars and trucks.
Buy the best ones you can and maintain them.
The automotive world is changeing fast and we are looking at a ban on combustion engines.
Buy the absolute best option loaded GMT400 you can find.
But chase the Square Bodies first.
That time might have passed but if you can get a solid square body with a carb snap it up.
And, if you are ever with someone and you have done everything you can think of for them...
But it comes down to your cat or your dog or your freinds or your family.
Or them?
Kick that ******** out.
Keep the dog, keep the cat, keep the car.
loose the *******.
HotWheelsBurban
Gotta have 4 doors..... Rawhide, TOTY 2023!
When I was a little kid, my dad had a '67 Chevy pickup, shortbed stepside, 250 six cylinder, three on the tree. Very fun truck; he had put a split exhaust manifold, 3 singles on an aftermarket intake ( probably Offy) and a hot cam in it. In 1975 he got the Jones for a new truck, a '75 GMC Sierra Classic long bed with a 350 and automatic. The '67 got sold to my aunt and uncle in Austin (without all the speed parts), that was her daily driver for several years.
So that was our first square body truck, had two more with the auto parts store. Then a few years later, we outgrew the family station wagon for going to swap meets. Had a guy try to sell us a round fender Suburban, it was a '70 iirc, but he kept changing his mind about the price (and it was not that great a truck to be honest!). So Dad and I found our first running square body Burb, the '79, on the way home from the last time talking to the dude about the '70. It was cheap cause the AC didn't work, definitely a work truck, but as long as it had oil, water, gas and ATF in it, that truck would go anywhere. Went all over Texas in it, several trips to Oklahoma too. Then we got the '84, a few years later, the '90. The '84 got stolen in 2005, and the '90 had some heavy miles on it, so we got to looking at Burbs again.
Could find several squares, but they were all projects. Needed a runner....so we found the first '99 Burb. Didn't know how swanky Suburbans had gotten in 20 years! It was a fairly decent truck; we had to spend some $$ on it a few times. But it was faithful, until the night that damn FWD Monte Carlo smacked into it. My brother said it was still running, and the Beatles CD he was listening to was still playing, until the cops reached in and shut the key off. That's a 350 for ya; radiator is wrapped around the fan and water pump, oil and coolant pouring out all over the street, but she's still going....
So that was our first square body truck, had two more with the auto parts store. Then a few years later, we outgrew the family station wagon for going to swap meets. Had a guy try to sell us a round fender Suburban, it was a '70 iirc, but he kept changing his mind about the price (and it was not that great a truck to be honest!). So Dad and I found our first running square body Burb, the '79, on the way home from the last time talking to the dude about the '70. It was cheap cause the AC didn't work, definitely a work truck, but as long as it had oil, water, gas and ATF in it, that truck would go anywhere. Went all over Texas in it, several trips to Oklahoma too. Then we got the '84, a few years later, the '90. The '84 got stolen in 2005, and the '90 had some heavy miles on it, so we got to looking at Burbs again.
Could find several squares, but they were all projects. Needed a runner....so we found the first '99 Burb. Didn't know how swanky Suburbans had gotten in 20 years! It was a fairly decent truck; we had to spend some $$ on it a few times. But it was faithful, until the night that damn FWD Monte Carlo smacked into it. My brother said it was still running, and the Beatles CD he was listening to was still playing, until the cops reached in and shut the key off. That's a 350 for ya; radiator is wrapped around the fan and water pump, oil and coolant pouring out all over the street, but she's still going....
HotWheelsBurban
Gotta have 4 doors..... Rawhide, TOTY 2023!
So, we needed a Burb again. This is in December 2012, January 2013, and we found our current '99 Burb at a little used car lot in the country out from Houston. Then while we're dealing on it, and trying to get the insurance company to give us $$ for the totalled Burb, Dad found the '06 Denali. That was going to be his daily driver truck, and for road trips with the family, and the Chevy was going to be"only" a swap meet/gig/show truck. Hardly put any miles on the Burb in the first 4 years we had it. Then when Mom's car quit, and the Denali got to be untrustworthy ( never knew what was gonna quit or F up next)....ol Chevy Burb got the call up to the major league.
While it is by no means perfect, it does have many merits.
It's paid for!
Most of what does happen to it, I can fix. In the event I can't, I have people who can, for not too much $$, and they'll do the work with me providing the parts.
Since it's a "work truck" with a few battle scars, if it gets scratched or gets a door ding, it still makes me angry,but I know it's not the end of the world. And hopefully nobody else ever backs into it and caves a door, or something else, in. That might result in someone getting a whipping....
And even when it's dirty and just looks like an old truck, it's usually the best looking truck in the parking lot... unless there's other 400s or squares there!
And the very frustrating passlock issues that kept me from being able to trust it for a couple of months...got me to this forum, where I have learned so much from y'all... about my Burb, and many other topics.
Mom sometimes thinks I talk too much about trucks and our Burb, but I have a great hobby and she always knows where to find me! On the computer or under the hood lol!
While it is by no means perfect, it does have many merits.
It's paid for!
Most of what does happen to it, I can fix. In the event I can't, I have people who can, for not too much $$, and they'll do the work with me providing the parts.
Since it's a "work truck" with a few battle scars, if it gets scratched or gets a door ding, it still makes me angry,but I know it's not the end of the world. And hopefully nobody else ever backs into it and caves a door, or something else, in. That might result in someone getting a whipping....
And even when it's dirty and just looks like an old truck, it's usually the best looking truck in the parking lot... unless there's other 400s or squares there!
And the very frustrating passlock issues that kept me from being able to trust it for a couple of months...got me to this forum, where I have learned so much from y'all... about my Burb, and many other topics.
Mom sometimes thinks I talk too much about trucks and our Burb, but I have a great hobby and she always knows where to find me! On the computer or under the hood lol!
Trenton
Just a Texan transplanted in the Rockies
Excuse me, but I have a lot to talk about on this topic since I think about it a lot, so prepare for a long read
Honestly, I'm attached to my truck, so I can never get rid of it, but I'd definitely ADD vehicles to my fleet. I like the immediate reliabilty of newer vehicles. I've put 36k on my '19 Impala in a year and a half, and I'm about to put another 3000 more miles on it in the next month. I just hop in my Impala, and take off. I never worry about if my car can make it like I do my older vehicles, and the fuel efficiency is amazing. It has plenty of passing power, yet sips gas when i set cruise between 65 mph and 75 mph. Being able to manually shift an automatic is great. I can drive stick since my Subie is a 5 speed, but I hate driving it in traffic. Also, all the creature comforts of newer cars has me spoiled. Huge sunroofs, automatically-connecting bluetooth, Android Auto, heated AND COOLED seats, dual-climate control, wireless phone chargers, rear A/C vents, satellite radio if that's your thing, and the interiors are so comfy. Hell, the new GM gauge clusters tell you your speed digitally, Trip A + MPG, Trip B + MPG, fuel range, transmission temp, immediate MPG, timer, and the trucks/suvs tell you the dang side-side/back-forth off road angle your truck is at, along with a real-time view of what tires have traction. Is it necessary? Not at all, but it's frickin cool.
The problem is it doesn't feel like it fits me like my '98 K3500 does. It's easier to work on, the aftermarket is HUGE, and the classic, simple interiors are my style. The power and throttle response is all linear, and any engine/transmission failure is relatively affordable. Plus, there's always a way to upgrade or replace something if you don't like it. And the '99-'13 GM trucks have the same amount of cab room as the OBS GM trucks. You would think they would have followed suit with other trucks and improved the leg room, but it took them 3 generations of trucks to improve the backseat leg room.
If I get another truck, it's going to be a diesel, so I'll have to get something else since the 90's diesels kind of suck for towing really heavy trailers.
Ideally, I'd like to Duramax LLY/ZF6 Speed swap my truck. That way I have the longevity, power, efficiency, and 6 gears like the newer diesels in my '98!
I'm not scared of payments at all. I'm a single, 22 year old with plenty of cash to spare since I work all the time and have cheap rent. I'm paying off my '19 Impala three years early just so I have more cash flow each month. I might save up for a wrecked diesel truck as a donor for a diesel swap.
If not, I'd just get a 2011+ GMC Sierra 3500 Denali CCLB 4x4 Dually. These trucks have a nicer interior, sunroof, COOLED SEATS, and the frames are BUILT SOLID for towing heavy trailers. the frame on my '98 K3500 is quite large, but it's small compared to the 2011+ LML trucks.
My favorite truck I ever drove at my old shop was a deleted/tuned 2008 GMC Sierra 2500 SLT Duramax/Allison. It had 530k miles on it, and it started up and hauled a** like it was brand new I loved the interior, so a truck just like that would be what I'd get.
To sum it up, I am attached to my OBS truck, but I want the modern performance in it.
Honestly, I'm attached to my truck, so I can never get rid of it, but I'd definitely ADD vehicles to my fleet. I like the immediate reliabilty of newer vehicles. I've put 36k on my '19 Impala in a year and a half, and I'm about to put another 3000 more miles on it in the next month. I just hop in my Impala, and take off. I never worry about if my car can make it like I do my older vehicles, and the fuel efficiency is amazing. It has plenty of passing power, yet sips gas when i set cruise between 65 mph and 75 mph. Being able to manually shift an automatic is great. I can drive stick since my Subie is a 5 speed, but I hate driving it in traffic. Also, all the creature comforts of newer cars has me spoiled. Huge sunroofs, automatically-connecting bluetooth, Android Auto, heated AND COOLED seats, dual-climate control, wireless phone chargers, rear A/C vents, satellite radio if that's your thing, and the interiors are so comfy. Hell, the new GM gauge clusters tell you your speed digitally, Trip A + MPG, Trip B + MPG, fuel range, transmission temp, immediate MPG, timer, and the trucks/suvs tell you the dang side-side/back-forth off road angle your truck is at, along with a real-time view of what tires have traction. Is it necessary? Not at all, but it's frickin cool.
The problem is it doesn't feel like it fits me like my '98 K3500 does. It's easier to work on, the aftermarket is HUGE, and the classic, simple interiors are my style. The power and throttle response is all linear, and any engine/transmission failure is relatively affordable. Plus, there's always a way to upgrade or replace something if you don't like it. And the '99-'13 GM trucks have the same amount of cab room as the OBS GM trucks. You would think they would have followed suit with other trucks and improved the leg room, but it took them 3 generations of trucks to improve the backseat leg room.
This dude said it best. I've driven a LOT of newer vehicles since I've worked at a shop and valet, and the response of some of these newer vehicles is REALLY irritating. Especially the new Ecoboost Ferds, they're the worst. The power in our older vehicles is much more linear, and I like it that way.
If I get another truck, it's going to be a diesel, so I'll have to get something else since the 90's diesels kind of suck for towing really heavy trailers.
Ideally, I'd like to Duramax LLY/ZF6 Speed swap my truck. That way I have the longevity, power, efficiency, and 6 gears like the newer diesels in my '98!
I'm not scared of payments at all. I'm a single, 22 year old with plenty of cash to spare since I work all the time and have cheap rent. I'm paying off my '19 Impala three years early just so I have more cash flow each month. I might save up for a wrecked diesel truck as a donor for a diesel swap.
If not, I'd just get a 2011+ GMC Sierra 3500 Denali CCLB 4x4 Dually. These trucks have a nicer interior, sunroof, COOLED SEATS, and the frames are BUILT SOLID for towing heavy trailers. the frame on my '98 K3500 is quite large, but it's small compared to the 2011+ LML trucks.
My favorite truck I ever drove at my old shop was a deleted/tuned 2008 GMC Sierra 2500 SLT Duramax/Allison. It had 530k miles on it, and it started up and hauled a** like it was brand new
I loved the interior, so a truck just like that would be what I'd get.To sum it up, I am attached to my OBS truck, but I want the modern performance in it.
Donald Mitchell
1990 C1500 5.7L
Since I was a kid I loved cars. I rememner my dad taking my brother and I to get haircut. Most kids don't like that but we had a cool barber that loved old cars and had lots of hot rod magazines to look at. I have had a lot of old cars but usually only one at a time. Maybe 4 trucks over the years as needed for hauling stuff. Right now I'm not sure why I bought this truck, I just decided I wanted one I guess. I think I bought it around 97. I got married a few years later and we bought a Victorian house. I used the heck out of it then. Trips to lowes homedepot and other building suppliers and to the dump a couple of times very weekend. Flat tires every monday. Several trips moving her things 300mi. and driving it to work. After 20 something years of that I didn't want a new truck, I wanted that truck back like new. I love it period. Like an old pair of boots or a hat or listening to a baseball game on a vintage radio, It just feels right.
RedneckWithPaychecks
454/350 x (4x4)²
Might be pretty long winded.
I still have my trucks because I love them. I beat on a 99 C3500 for years, the Vortec 350 would never die. Ever. I grew up with a big 2wd crew cab dually and when I saw the 99, I wanted it. It lived a life worthy of a Chevy badge, no doubt. If it wasn’t for that truck, I’d still be driving whatever was cheapest at a scummy car lot. I drive cars because they were cheap, if it was gonna pass my test drive, it was gonna survive years of abuse. I have so many stories in that truck, some good and some bad.
I likely won’t buy a new truck ever in my life. Now I might buy a new car or SUV for my wife but she’ll have to sell the Blazer and that’s not happening unless anyone wants to pay 10,000,000,000 dollars to pay for the down payment for the entire country of Mongolia.
One thing about modern vehicles: They aren’t comfy! My 02 Tahoe Z71 is really comfy, I test drove a 2021 Tahoe Z71 and I didn’t even last 15 minutes before I got uncomfortable. No wonder they make cars only to go around racetracks. You’ll have to go 100 MPH to get anywhere without a backache or buttock pain. I don’t drive cars like a race car driver so I don’t understand the point. The seats that car reviewers claimed were “flat and you slide around too much” kept me better in turns than modern seats made to do that! I’m just getting old, that’s the problem.
I have trucks and SUVs from 1989, 1994, 1995, 2001, 2002 for a reason. They are just better than new cars. My daughter got this trait, no wonder she has only cars from the 80s and 90s. Same can’t be said for her partner by any means. She gets a Brand new car every 6 months it seems.
Back to my durability point on these 400s. All of them have more than 250k miles, none of them have had major mechanical problems. Rust took the 99 out of commission, I can’t really save something that has a piece of plywood holding the dually flares and most of the rear suspension onto the truck. My 89 will go out because either gas prices have reached $10 a gallon, or it gets wrecked. If my 94 gets into an accident, someone won’t be surviving “the accident”.
I’ll be similarly annoyed if my Blazer, Tahoe, or snowblower gets wrecked or rusts away.
Again this is really long winded, I won’t be surprised if it reaches some kind of word limit.
I still have my trucks because I love them. I beat on a 99 C3500 for years, the Vortec 350 would never die. Ever. I grew up with a big 2wd crew cab dually and when I saw the 99, I wanted it. It lived a life worthy of a Chevy badge, no doubt. If it wasn’t for that truck, I’d still be driving whatever was cheapest at a scummy car lot. I drive cars because they were cheap, if it was gonna pass my test drive, it was gonna survive years of abuse. I have so many stories in that truck, some good and some bad.
I likely won’t buy a new truck ever in my life. Now I might buy a new car or SUV for my wife but she’ll have to sell the Blazer and that’s not happening unless anyone wants to pay 10,000,000,000 dollars to pay for the down payment for the entire country of Mongolia.
One thing about modern vehicles: They aren’t comfy! My 02 Tahoe Z71 is really comfy, I test drove a 2021 Tahoe Z71 and I didn’t even last 15 minutes before I got uncomfortable. No wonder they make cars only to go around racetracks. You’ll have to go 100 MPH to get anywhere without a backache or buttock pain. I don’t drive cars like a race car driver so I don’t understand the point. The seats that car reviewers claimed were “flat and you slide around too much” kept me better in turns than modern seats made to do that! I’m just getting old, that’s the problem.
I have trucks and SUVs from 1989, 1994, 1995, 2001, 2002 for a reason. They are just better than new cars. My daughter got this trait, no wonder she has only cars from the 80s and 90s. Same can’t be said for her partner by any means. She gets a Brand new car every 6 months it seems.
Back to my durability point on these 400s. All of them have more than 250k miles, none of them have had major mechanical problems. Rust took the 99 out of commission, I can’t really save something that has a piece of plywood holding the dually flares and most of the rear suspension onto the truck. My 89 will go out because either gas prices have reached $10 a gallon, or it gets wrecked. If my 94 gets into an accident, someone won’t be surviving “the accident”.
I’ll be similarly annoyed if my Blazer, Tahoe, or snowblower gets wrecked or rusts away.
Again this is really long winded, I won’t be surprised if it reaches some kind of word limit.
Trenton
Just a Texan transplanted in the Rockies
In the process of it right now! I just bought a running and driving 1982 Chevy K10 Silverado short bed. I'm not sure the trans, but it has a 305. I plan on replacing the engine/trans with a 5.7L Vortec/4L80e out of a late 90s GM truck. Lifting it 6 inches, converting to crossover steering, putting it on one tons and 35s, and making it my off road rig. The off road trails in Colorado are phenomenal.
Best part, it has manual crank windows
When I moved from Arizona to Colorado I had an 83 K5 Blazer as my daily.In the process of it right now! I just bought a running and driving 1982 Chevy K10 Silverado short bed. I'm not sure the trans, but it has a 305. I plan on replacing the engine/trans with a 5.7L Vortec/4L80e out of a late 90s GM truck. Lifting it 6 inches, converting to crossover steering, putting it on one tons and 35s, and making it my off road rig. The off road trails in Colorado are phenomenal.
Best part, it has manual crank windows
Just awesome offroad trucks.
The NP208 transfer case has a 2.98 to 1 reduction and the combination of that plus a live axle front end and an insane ramp travel articulation and really short entry and exit makes for a great offroad platform.
And you can fit 32x11.5 on 10 iinch rims
without a lift and they dont rub.
And I really dont recomend a lifted square body on Colorado trails.
There is some spooky tip over rolling over **** to be had.
The only downside was the friggen 700r4 transmission.
I went through a bunch of them before I got it right.
And I let my ex wife talk me into donating it to a charity for the tax right off.
I should have kept the truck and donated her to science.
But I had just bought a brand new Jeep Cherokee Sport with the Up Country suspesion package and 2 inch lift and offroad floor mats and mountain rated air freshioners and all of the rest of the nonsense they were selling.
Bought it in Arizona.
All was well
It had about 6k on it.
It didnt try to kill me untill it died coming back down from Pikes Peak.
Check engine light, 2 pops 3 or 4 farts and no power brakes no power steering.
Really not a good place for that to happen.
Im from Seattle. Ive have some mountain driving experiance.
Everyone else in the Jeep was from Detroit.
They freaked out and opened the friggen doors and bailed out on that ****** road while I was dead sticking this thing to a stop.
They all managed to stay on the road after a bit of rolling and ass over teeth action and a bit of asphalt skin removal.
Airplane crashes are often caused by information overload.
Too many things happening at the same time and your brain cant react fast enough.
It was like a clown car crash.
Im pulling the E brake handle through the roof with no power and they are rolling on the road behind me.
I stopped the damn thing. I tried not to laugh.
No I didnt, thats a lie.
It was epic .
They just blew out the doors like the thing was on fire.
Got it stopped at the next turn and parked it to let the brakes cool and waited for the bailout victoms to peel the rocks out of their limbs .
It started back up. It was an ECM software problem that was altitude triggered.
Because it was a Phoenix Jeep and not a Denver Jeep.
I took it out of its programmed parameters.
Way way back in the old days we would have performance problems with quadrajets if we tried to run them from sea level to high altitude on the same carb without a tune.
And, if you are looking at buying a replacement Quadrajet.
They come in hundreds of different flavors.
The big deal is to pay attention to the carb linkage geometry and how that relates to the 700r4.
You can smoke that transmission just by taking the Quadrajet off and putting on a Holley or an Edelbrock or an old Carter.
Whatever.
That geometry and its relation to the "throw" of that cable determines the the timing and the high pressure and bleedoff and a the ratio between how much money you have spent compared to tools you have thrown across the garage
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