My 454 Rebuild

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ralmo94

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Correct, but IFR isn't something you tune per se, it's a set it and forget it. The big 3 are IFR, VE, and MAF. Once those are correct, then you can set up everything else. If you do everything else then those 3, you have to go back and redo everything else.
There is also the school of thought that a MAF curve should never be touched as it has been configured for the intake tract by gm with more tools than the average joe has to use. Also the MAF is what the torque calculations use, not flow rate. Honestly The onlything I can think that flow rate would screw up, is Fuel consumption calcs. Another option too would be to change what it thinks stioch is to get idle trims in line. I'll concede that it isn't correct, but since PE ratios are in EQ ratio in stead of AFR, it just multiplies stioch, and would be an easy quick way to get it.
I'm also not saying it doesn't need a tune.

No. The black box is stock untouched.
Interesting...
Did you test Fuel Pressure and Check Fuel Trims on the Old engine?
 

Schurkey

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Bank 1
see if it really is that rich.


16% rich is like 12.3 Afr on a wide band. If so, why is it so rich on a stock tune?

I dunno why so rich,

when it goes into PE it's rich.

That's what rich looks like with that program
I know nothing about computer tuning.

HOWEVER

I see folks saying that the engine is "rich" based on the fuel trim numbers shown in the graph. This is NOT correct. Fuel trim numbers do not show rich/lean air/fuel ratios.

The O2 sensor can show rich/lean, but only if there's no misfire. If there's misfire, the signal is corrupted by the presence of the oxygen that did not combine with the hydro-carbon fuel to produce water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2). Misfire produces a false-lean indication.

Fuel trim numbers less than 128 (the way I'm used to seeing it presented by the scan tool) or showing a percentage reduction does not indicate "rich", it indicates "Lean Command". The computer is compensating the fuel delivery based on the O2 sensor signal, reducing the amount of fuel that would otherwise be required by the base programming (tuning.) The fuel mixture delivered to the cylinder is still correct, the mixture is not actually "rich".

"Running rich" and "Lean Command" are not the same thing.





If this engine is misfiring at idle, the upstream O2 sensor(s) should be showing a false-lean condition, leading to Rich Command. If it's not, things are double-weird. What are the misfire counts per cylinder? Are the misfires genuinely "random" or are they confined to certain cylinders? What are the O2 sensor voltages, and cross-counts if that info is available?

To my thinking, fix the misfires first, reconsider the computer tuning second. The computer tuning is not so far off that it's actually causing a rich air/fuel ratio. The computer is still within the range of compensation for the tuning.

You've replaced a heap of parts, but I don't see that you've tested most of them first--or afterward. I'd be looking for a spark-tester calibrated for HEI, and see if the coil can jump the gap reliably when the tester is connected to the spark-plug end of the plug wire leading to every cylinder that shows misfire. This tests the coil, coil wire, distributor cap, rotor, and the plug wires themselves. It does not test for spark plug problems--cracked porcelain, fouling, etc.

Installing a timing set "dot-to-dot" can be done by GM using their "validated" parts, especially since 90% plus of their customers wouldn't know the difference if the cam timing were five degrees off. Using less-reliable aftermarket parts and installing "dot-to-dot" is a total crapshoot. I at least check the "degree" of every cam I install, because if there's a problem later, I don't have to worry about cam timing being a contributor.

You MIGHT be able to confirm camshaft position by putting #1 (or #6) on TDC EXHAUST (NOT TDC-Compression!!!) and looking at the valves. Both valves should be very slightly open on overlap. I'd expect the intake to be open a hint more than the exhaust. If the exhaust is open more than the intake, the cam is retarded. If the intake is open a bunch more than the exhaust, the cam is advanced. Problem is, with hydraulic lifters, they may bleed-down so fast that cam-lobe position is lost to the plunger collapse.

Another method that might work--kinda--is to look at the distributor housing position, with the cam and crank synchronization adjusted as close to "perfect" as possible. If the distributor is rotated more than a couple degrees from it's usual position, the cam timing is suspect. The problem with this method is that you'd have to have a really-strong sense of the "correct" distributor position, and we've seen problems with aftermarket distributors not having proper alignment to begin with. Distributor gear wear, and wear on the gear on the back of the cam could also affect distributor position.
 
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L31MaxExpress

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Dialing the airflow tables rich isn't exactly correct either.

It shouldn't mess anything else up, assuming everything else is correct, it is a main constant that effects everything. It is one method, but I would use a stock MAF curve, and rich VE, get trims in order on stock curve.

There is also the school of thought that a MAF curve should never be touched as it has been configured for the intake tract by gm with more tools than the average joe has to use. Also the MAF is what the torque calculations use, not flow rate. Honestly The onlything I can think that flow rate would screw up, is Fuel consumption calcs. Another option too would be to change what it thinks stioch is to get idle trims in line. I'll concede that it isn't correct, but since PE ratios are in EQ ratio in stead of AFR, it just multiplies stioch, and would be an easy quick way to get it.
I'm also not saying it doesn't need a tune.


Interesting...
Did you test Fuel Pressure and Check Fuel Trims on the Old engine?
I am not on that school of thought with the MAF. Considering this.
xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 

ralmo94

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Fuel trim numbers less than 128
OBD2 0 is the same as 128 OBD1
The fuel mixture delivered to the cylinder is still correct, the mixture is not actually "rich".

"Running rich" and "Lean Command" are not the same thing.
When refering to fuel trims, if it is commanding lean and removing fuel, that means that THE BASE TUNE is rich, THat is what everyone means when they say its rich.
If this engine is misfiring at idle, the upstream O2 sensor(s) should be showing a false-lean condition, leading to Rich Command
False Fuel Trims is why I suggested the OP should get a wide band, to verify the trims are driving the mixture the correct direction, I personally think the tune is pretty far off. But is that causing misfire? I don't know. It should have run ok on the stock tune, even if it wasn't right for the new combination.
To my thinking, fix the misfires first, reconsider the computer tuning second. The computer tuning is not so far off that it's actually causing a rich air/fuel ratio. The computer is still within the range of compensation for the tuning.
Exactly! First rule of tuning is to have a good running engine before tuning, you can't tune out mechanical problems. IF it was doing this when taken to get tuned, I'm surprised the shop and tuner proceeded
 

Carlaisle

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You have spent a lot of money and energy replacing parts that did not test bad. Did you observe the engine running in the dark to look for an inappropriate lightning show in the engine bay?
 

Spareparts

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Sorry did not get a thing done yesterday.
#ES-5183 That's what the paperwork has listed by the machine shop for the cam.
Checked it for errant spark in the dark last week on way to work. Nothing seen.
It is pulling fuel because of incomplete combustion right?
I don't have a way to check spark strength but i can tell you when you pull a plug wire 1 at a time the spark is hot blue, jumps a good distance and for sure effn hurt if it zapped ya.
Timing light shows a nice even flash as a guy would expect to see.

As much as i have been trying to avoid it im at the point of thinking it's a valve train issue of some type.
As i have said, Compression is lower than expected but even on all cylinders it also passes a leak down test.
I would think that means the valves are not bent and seating fine?

Machine shop supplied lifters bleeding down? Maybe, valve train is quiet. Although Friday i did hear 1 bleed off a little on the dr side in the 5,7 area.
Never did tick but you definitely could hear it was going soft for about 30 seconds then pumped back up at hot idle.

Weak valve springs? The machine shop said the heads were fine, Cleaned and installed new seals. Did they measure spring pressure, Installed hight blah blah blah, Doubt it now as 6 springs were installed by them upside down. Pics are somewhere in this thread.

Cam is unknown Engine Tech quality but new. It was supplied by machine shop and is $149.00 on Rock Auto if that says anything. It is installed dot to dot but that does not mean it was manufactured properly as @Schurkey and @L31MaxExpress and probably a few others have mentioned.
 

ralmo94

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Weak valve springs? The machine shop said the heads were fine, Cleaned and installed new seals. Did they measure spring pressure, Installed hight blah blah blah, Doubt it now as 6 springs were installed by them upside down. Pics are somewhere in this thread
So stock springs were reused with an aftermarket cam? Seems like asking for trouble to me. Good news is you could change them out your self. Are you using stock rotators and net lash system as well?

Cam is unknown Engine Tech quality but new. It was supplied by machine shop and is $149.00 on Rock Auto if that says anything. It is installed dot to dot but that does not mean it was manufactured properly as @Schurkey and @L31MaxExpress and probably a few others have mentioned.
I doubt it was made out of time enough to cause a misfire, the stock set is reported to be anywhere from 6°to 8° retarded.

Just because the cam is cheap doesn't mean it's junk, just because it's expensive doesn't make it better. I have IIRC about 50,000 miles on a cam, lifter, and spring set I got for a TBI truck for about $120 on Amazon, 350ci, flat tappet, but runs great idles smooth, and has lots of torque.
 

Spareparts

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Yes it has the stock valve train in it now.
When engine was first installed it had an adjustable valve train with roller rockers.
About a week after first start i removed that and put the stock setup on it thinking maybe something weird was going on with that. Changed nothing.
Here is a log from first dead cold start to back in the driveway hot key off is you would like a look.
 

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