Can I efficiently rebuild an internal combustion engine?

[Supercharged111]

Excitedly wringing hands as I get more and more anxious about picking up my 500 inch Caddy....

You found a good one?

 

[MIHELA]

It will be fun for sure.

 

[1ton-o-fun]

You found a good one?

Long story short, yes.
I will be picking it up in a couple of weeks. Was part of a Cadillac collector's stash. Over a dozen hearses and Eldorados and Devilles. Supposed to have less than 100k miles on it, intake and heads removed by the 65 year old guy I purchased it from. Said he wasn't sure about the mileage until he took it apart. It was painted white for some reason. I'll know more when I pick it up.

 

[thinger2]

Not trying to call you out, but I believe it's more an issue of better metallurgy and tolerances. According to my friend who sold me my '76 Cadillac, it had 300,000+ miles with the stock 500. The machinist measured the bottom end five times because it had "no discernible wear" (his words) on it. There was no bore taper. That was with a Quadrajet, the same oil, and a non-overdrive TH-400. They're high-nickel-content blocks, and on initial assembly they graded the bores and pistons to match. There were twelve piston sizes in .0002" increments. My '69 Cadillac's 472 had the same grade markings and a similar lack of wear. Our motors don't have the same blueprinting, but I do believe GM's metallurgy improved in the interim. The improvements you mention probably also deserve a lot of credit.

A bit late to the conversation but the Caddy blocks and the Olds blocks do have a higher nickel content than the Chevy.
Right up untill 1977 for the Olds and maybe the caddy too.
So 76 is the last good block. In 77 they changed the design and Pontiac started casting the heads.
Back in the mid to late 70s, jet boat racing started as a "demonstration class" with the american powerboat racing association.
The "APBA"
They ran olds 350 and 455.
An engine in a boat takes way more of a beating than it does in a car.
A car has a clutch or an auto that allows for some slip.
An inboard racing boat does not have a gearbox at all. It is mechanically connected so the prop loading, crank flex from hull pounding etc...
Just beats the snot out of them.
And jet boats are the worst.
In a jet, you need bottom end torque to get the boat out of the hole and you need that torque all the way through the lower rpm range just to get on plane.
The Chevys couldnt do that without breaking the crank.
Eventually, they even ran 460 Fords just for the nut.
But the heads suck on a 460 so, while they can take the load. They just dont rev enough.
Same problem with the Mopar 440.
The heads suck.
The problem with the olds is that they under oil the mains.
All the oil pumps up to the head faster than it can drain back and the mains get starved.
You are pretty much eating the mains at about 5k rpm.
Many ways to get around that by putting in oil restricters and a bunch of other little tricks.
Buick nailheads have a similiar top end oiling issue.
Anyway, the 1976 Olds 350 sitting next to me came out of a competition jet boat.
It has been beat like a dog for ten racing seasons.
It didnt have a wear ridge, just carbon crud.
Cleaned it off with a mild scotchbrite and some kerosene.
Ended up boring it .030 over. It didnt need it.
Line honed it. It didnt need it.
Put oil restricters in it . It for sure needed those.
Its all a part of my sick twisted goal to see if I can make an Olds 350 explode at 5500 rpm instead of 4800 rpm.
If I get this money sucking turd to 6 grand before it goes all loud and scary banging noises.
Im gonna call my mom.

 

[HotWheelsBurban]

A bit late to the conversation but the Caddy blocks and the Olds blocks do have a higher nickel content than the Chevy.
Right up untill 1977 for the Olds and maybe the caddy too.
So 76 is the last good block. In 77 they changed the design and Pontiac started casting the heads.
Back in the mid to late 70s, jet boat racing started as a "demonstration class" with the american powerboat racing association.
The "APBA"
They ran olds 350 and 455.
An engine in a boat takes way more of a beating than it does in a car.
A car has a clutch or an auto that allows for some slip.
An inboard racing boat does not have a gearbox at all. It is mechanically connected so the prop loading, crank flex from hull pounding etc...
Just beats the snot out of them.
And jet boats are the worst.
In a jet, you need bottom end torque to get the boat out of the hole and you need that torque all the way through the lower rpm range just to get on plane.
The Chevys couldnt do that without breaking the crank.
Eventually, they even ran 460 Fords just for the nut.
But the heads suck on a 460 so, while they can take the load. They just dont rev enough.
Same problem with the Mopar 440.
The heads suck.
The problem with the olds is that they under oil the mains.
All the oil pumps up to the head faster than it can drain back and the mains get starved.
You are pretty much eating the mains at about 5k rpm.
Many ways to get around that by putting in oil restricters and a bunch of other little tricks.
Buick nailheads have a similiar top end oiling issue.
Anyway, the 1976 Olds 350 sitting next to me came out of a competition jet boat.
It has been beat like a dog for ten racing seasons.
It didnt have a wear ridge, just carbon crud.
Cleaned it off with a mild scotchbrite and some kerosene.
Ended up boring it .030 over. It didnt need it.
Line honed it. It didnt need it.
Put oil restricters in it . It for sure needed those.
Its all a part of my sick twisted goal to see if I can make an Olds 350 explode at 5500 rpm instead of 4800 rpm.
If I get this money sucking turd to 6 grand before it goes all loud and scary banging noises.
Im gonna call my mom.

IIRC Oldsmobile used to be considered the engineering make of GM ( back when there was Oldsmobile). Guess they engineered themselves out of existence....

 

[Schurkey]

A bit late to the conversation but the Caddy blocks and the Olds blocks do have a higher nickel content than the Chevy.

Everyone except Chevy, and Ford small-blocks claims to have better iron. And there's some truth to it--of the GM makes, Chevy got the crappiest iron with the fastest bore wear. All the others--Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Cadillac-got harder stuff; either a different alloy, or different heat-treatment, or some combination. The Ford small-blocks maybe had even worse bore wear than the Chevys. I don't think the FEs, or the 385-series suffered like the little guys, though. I don't know about the 351s.

Whether any of that has to do with "nickel" is beyond my pay grade. There was a time when the premium Chevy blocks advertised added tin, though.

And jet boats are the worst.
In a jet, you need bottom end torque to get the boat out of the hole and you need that torque all the way through the lower rpm range just to get on plane.

Interesting.

The boats I skied behind had z-e-r-o need for low-end torque. The prop--or especially the jet pump--was like a sloppy 4000-rpm stall speed torque converter. There's no load at all on the engine at 2K because the impeller just slips, hardly pumping any water. It was like revving in neutral--no torque needed. We used to see all sorts of jet boats--and some V-drives--with wild cams, bigass tunnel rams and dual four barrels, simply because there was no need for low-rpm power.

OTOH, like all centrifugal pumps, once the RPM goes up, pump efficiency goes up, and it takes 600 horsepower to turn 6000 rpm (depending on which impeller and bowl is used, of course.)

I was on a "Wave-Piercing Catamaran", out in open ocean. Couple hundred passengers, mostly drunk. That thing had four, 12V92 Detroits. I can only imagine the size of the four jet pumps. They wouldn't give me an engine-room tour, though. THAT jet may have needed low-end torque. This was twenty years ago, they're advertising different engines now.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[thinger2]

IIRC Oldsmobile used to be considered the engineering make of GM ( back when there was Oldsmobile). Guess they engineered themselves out of existence....

Yes they did. If you look into Olds history. That is exactly what happened..

Everyone except Chevy, and Ford small-blocks claims to have better iron. And there's some truth to it--of the GM makes, Chevy got the crappiest iron with the fastest bore wear. All the others--Pontiac, Olds, Buick, Cadillac-got harder stuff; either a different alloy, or different heat-treatment, or some combination. The Ford small-blocks maybe had even worse bore wear than the Chevys. I don't think the FEs, or the 385-series suffered like the little guys, though. I don't know about the 351s.

Whether any of that has to do with "nickel" is beyond my pay grade. There was a time when the premium Chevy blocks advertised added tin, though.


Interesting.

The boats I skied behind had z-e-r-o need for low-end torque. The prop--or especially the jet pump--was like a sloppy 4000-rpm stall speed torque converter. There's no load at all on the engine at 2K because the impeller just slips, hardly pumping any water. It was like revving in neutral--no torque needed. We used to see all sorts of jet boats--and some V-drives--with wild cams, bigass tunnel rams and dual four barrels, simply because there was no need for low-rpm power.

OTOH, like all centrifugal pumps, once the RPM goes up, pump efficiency goes up, and it takes 600 horsepower to turn 6000 rpm (depending on which impeller and bowl is used, of course.)

I was on a "Wave-Piercing Catamaran", out in open ocean. Couple hundred passengers, mostly drunk. That thing had four, 12V92 Detroits. I can only imagine the size of the four jet pumps. They wouldn't give me an engine-room tour, though. THAT jet may have needed low-end torque. This was twenty years ago, they're advertising different engines now.

You must be registered for see images attach

The boats you skied behind have nothing to do with competition jets.
Go google some cj jet runs and get back to me about how they Are the same jets running the same engines.
Go ahead and tell me all you know about flatbottom and inboard class hydroplane racing.
Lets start with the 225s and work our way up to division 1 7 litres.
Tell Me all about piston boats and turbines.
And, while your at it go ahead and chuck out something about triple jet deisal cats.
How about some sailing?
Lets dig on into some gaff head ketch **** and standing rigging and running backstays and maybe some spinnaker rudder stalling.
You wanna talk about boats?
Bring it. Im all in

 

[MIHELA]

In 1977, The 500 engine was dropped from Cadillac. They replaced it with the 425, with a claimed 80-100 lbs of weight reduction. They took mass out of the whole block casting, reduced the size of the main caps, lightened the crank, took material out of the web, and replaced some iron parts with aluminum. In 1980 they took it even further with the 368. Those are still good engines, and still have the high nickel blocks, but they aren't great for people who want to make a lot more power than stock.

 

[Erik the Awful]

With a little modification the 425 heads bolt onto the low-compression 500s to give about 9.5:1 IIRC. In my opinion that's the only thing 425s are good for. If my 500 drops a cylinder, I still have more cubic inches than a 425.

 

[thinger2]

In 1977, The 500 engine was dropped from Cadillac. They replaced it with the 425, with a claimed 80-100 lbs of weight reduction. They took mass out of the whole block casting, reduced the size of the main caps, lightened the crank, took material out of the web, and replaced some iron parts with aluminum. In 1980 they took it even further with the 368. Those are still good engines, and still have the high nickel blocks, but they aren't great for people who want to make a lot more power than stock.

Yep, then followed it up with the v8-6-4 disaster which led to the truly awfull 4100.
I drove a md 80s ht4100 from Seattle to Phoenix and took the "southern route"
Beautifull comfortable car.
Getting that pig over the grapevine sucked bad.
I got passed by a u haul truck.
And then, the Northstar.
I know a guy who has about 300k on his all original 98 sts but he is an absolute maintenance freak.
This guy has his wiper blades replaced at the stealership.
That said, Two cars that I just cant seem to stay away from are any old Caddy and 60s Ford T birds.
I know they will be trouble but about every ten years or so I just do it anyway.