Panel Bonding?

[AK 99]

This discussion is starting to become laughable now. So now we are using examples from the aviation and construction industries too? And now making assumptions that the adhesive users are not capable or willing to weld? There's clearly a few people that are 100% against the use of adhesive and that's fine, but it's also obvious that they only hear what they want to hear and will continue on with the mentality that adhesive is the devil's work and anyone that uses it is lazy and in a rush.

I've said it in previous posts and it was clearly ignored by some, it's probably going to get ignored again, but here it goes anyway... The 3m product, when used properly and in the right applications, can be a stronger and longer lasting repair than welding. Dry climate folks probably will never see a difference however. And again take note about the "when used properly and in the right applications" part of that. All the stories of misuse and poor application do not matter here. You blame the user and not the (3m) adhesive. Much like you should blame the shooter in a murder, not the gun.

But anyway, I've said what I need to and will not be responding to this topic anymore, which I'm sure will make some people happy. Y'all have a good one and I'll see myself to the door.

 

[kenh]

OK so I'll throw my hat in the ring.....

I wrenched for a power sports dealer. Polaris snowmobiles started to use an aluminum panel bonded on the bottom of the sled in front of the track. That panel was roughly 12" square. It was just "glued" on with one rivet in each corner (IIRC) just to align it and hold it while the epoxy cured. I had to take one off. I destroyed the panel getting it off. This was SOP according to Polaris and the repair underneath included the panel and epoxy.

I would have no qualms about bonded panels. Especially in a rust prone area as you could prime and paint the hidden part of the panel before gluing it in place. Of course remove the paint from the bonding area.

Ken

 

[Hipster]

Panel bonding has been used in the aviation industry for decades.
But only in certain pre engineered and highly tested and inspected situations.
Everybody needs to know what they are doing and be trained to do it and everybody gets to sign for it.
If that bond fails and causes a crash?
They will find you and charge you.
Just a part of the industry.
But, when they sell "miracle glue" to the general public or to a less regulated industry like auto body,
That paper trail of liability doesnt exist.
Any type of adhesive or resin or any chemical mix can only be used within its very specific set of parameters.
If you go outside of those parameters,
You end up with catalyize failures, bond failures, slow cure, no cure and on and on and on
All of this also applies to fiberglass, carbon fiber settup epoxy bolts ....
A cab corner patch?
Okay maybe. You wont kill anyone but I still hate the whole idea.
Rocker? No
And you still have to follow the instructions exactly.
I know this doesnt really have a whole lot to say that is really relevant to a cab corner,
But I'll leave you with a couple of glue failures.
1. The "BigDig" in Boston.
They used epoxy anchors in a verticle application and a huge and entirely decorative slab of concrete dropped on some poor womans car and killed her.
Why? you cant use epoxy anchors in verticle application.
If you are stupid enough to try it, you need to use undercut wedge anchors which is stiill a bad ******* idea.
She got crushed by a slab of stone just to satisfy some egotistical architect.
#2
The Americas Cup carbon fiber multi million boat that snapped in half and sank.
Some moron didnt understand how carbon fibte works.
Hole sawed through the deck to install compasses.
You tube it, its pretty awesome failure.
#3 personal experiance.
Had a sub install 2000 friggen concrete bolts and they all failed.
And this, if you are still reading is the very important part.
He got a "great deal" on epoxy tubes.
They were 5 years expired.
Whatever you decide to do, pay really close attention to the batch date and expiration date.
Dont pay for **** thats been on the shelf for years.
Old goop of any type reacts and sets in a different way than new goop.
And it might not react at all.
It may "fake bond" and shrink back.
The moral of the story?
Just ******* buy a cheapass decent mig with dual sheid and practice on some scrap and watch some vids and learn how to weld and how to shrink welds for ***** sake.
Its art. Learn how to be an artist.
And thats my rant.
Stay safe, stay warm my friends

Benz has had aluminum bodies since mid 2000's and at this point so do many others. Adhesives and Titanium rivets on certain parts of the Benz. Again the adhesive nothing like panel bond and the adhesive not the sole method of attachment. The rivets make up the mechanical attachment. A total m'fer of a car to work on. The tech and some of the construction methods crept over into the auto industry years ago. All these aluminum repairs are supposed to be done in a clean room.

"learn how to weld and how to shrink welds for ***** sake" Totally agree. Learn how to weld, hammer weld, heat shrink, pick and pull metal, hammer and dolly etc.

 

[TechNova]

The 3m product, when used properly and in the right applications, can be a stronger and longer lasting repair than welding.

Correct and patch panels is not the right application. Plus depending on the application I can make a welded joint last longer.

Would you please quote and post the parts where people said adhesive is the devil's work and people that use it are lazy, I'm not seeing it.

 

[TechNova]

Yes, It's changing rapidly and you have to pay attention to the oem repair guidelines. I-car is not what it used to be but better then nothing I guess. We get the oem repair procedures printed out on every job that needs panel replacement.

One from yesterday: Ford axle nut, one time use fastener. When installing the new nut it must be put on in continuous rotation to 57 ft/lbs (guess from memory) then 90-105 degrees. If you stop turning it at any point it must be removed and a new nut used.
Mike Anderson's 6 triggers for minimum times to look up procedures:
1. welding
2. structural
3. Int. trim
4. safety restraints
5. suspension
6. crash avoidance

 

[Hipster]

One from yesterday: Ford axle nut, one time use fastener. When installing the new nut it must be put on in continuous rotation to 57 ft/lbs (guess from memory) then 90-105 degrees. If you stop turning it at any point it must be removed and a new nut used.
Mike Anderson's 6 triggers for minimum times to look up procedures:
1. welding
2. structural
3. Int. trim
4. safety restraints
5. suspension
6. crash avoidance

I've seen elsewhere where the axle nut was one time use but can't remember the make. One of the imports I'm wanting to say.

We do quite a few f-150's even to R&I a tailight turns into a PITA with the sensors.

 

[Kustombuilt1911]

I never ( & don't think anyone else) said people using different adhesives are lazy. Hell I've used plenty in non structural applications & have had plenty of success. They are a great product for their intended use. But i'm not going to be using them in a patch panel application. Like said earlier learn how to weld & work metal. Its an art & a dying one at that.

 

[letitsnow]

Are there any young autobody techs in our group?

 

[SUBURBAN5]

Are there any young autobody techs in our group?

Not it

 

[TechNova]

Are there any young autobody techs in our group?

Define 'young"