Turbo v6, my ideas and hopes

[Scottydc]

This is a long thread that I will update as often as possible. I think this info could not only help someone that has the 4.3 Vortec V6 but also those who have the L31 5.7

I'd love to get any input from you all.

So, the first responses I expect from most guys and in most cases they would be correct is:
"Hey goof ball..don't bother with the V6, you'll spend more money than what a LS or other V8 swap would cost." and I could see that, but here's why that does not sit well with me in this case.

I bought my truck last October and the previous owner just had the 4.3 rebuilt it currently has about 1600 miles on it now since the rebuild. He provided me with the build sheet from a local machine shop and its a great motor, he spent quite a bit on it top to bottom, a great deal/investment but its a V6... We all know the v6 vs v8 blues.. If i pulled the engine and sold it, chances are I would have a hard time selling it to get what it's worth. So I'd rather have some fun with it first, waste not want not.

My PLANS and GOALS are to do this, boost it, spend as little as possible and what I do spend ONLY spend money on things that can be used again LATER for a V8 swap. If I blow this engine it'll be swapped for a LS and my plan is to use parts that interchange between the two.

Ford has peaked my interest with this whole EcoBoost thing they've got going, its a great concept. I watched a video yesterday of a EcoBoost Mustang that is running 10's... with a 4! Pretty amazing stuff.. I just think it's a great idea and I wish GM ran with it instead. The idea of having a somewhat eco friendly car that will suck you back in the seat when you want it to is great.

For my turbo, I will use a single remote mount t4 mounted right where the factory muffler is now. I like this option for 3 reasons. 1: regardless of what engine is being used, as long as it uses a 2-1 exhaust the turbo installed will work with it. 2: It's easier and cheaper, I wont have to build or purchase any headers or manifolds (which for the v6 is a COSTLY) a LS not so much. 3: It's simple.

I think for the V6 I will try out the cheaper EBay stuff to play with the V6 a full kit can be purchased for a little over 500. When going to an Ls I'd likely upgrade to a Turbonetics or Garrett. The only real con to remote in my opinion would be you have to use a pump to return oil from the turbo, and the longer cold pipe. Some say it can delay boost but that's not always the case. SLP kits have gained lots of popularity.. I want my boost to come in at about 23-2700 rpm.

The biggest issue with boosting these Vortec v6 packages that I've researched is fuel delivery. The common answer is "marine intake or a modified Edelbrock" the reasoning behind this is so you can have external multi point fuel injectors, better tunability and can ditch the Spider. That's wasted money for me. Why spend that money on a intake that will only work with the 4.3. So I've been exploring different options. FMU or boost referenced fuel regulators can likely get a low boost engine by.. Some folk have went as far to add an extra aux fuel injector.. But I honestly think I can do better, even using the stock setup.. Heres why,

I recently replaced the old poppet spider system on my engine with one of these. Its an upgrade GM came up with in the early 2000's for the still in production Vortec CSFI systems. Interesting enough as far as I know this new style stayed in used in the 4.3 applications well into the mid 2000s.. Maybe longer. It's a great little upgrade and made my truck run much better and it got my gears turning.

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This basically removes the old poppet system that valved fuel in the plug area and replaces it with "modern" fuel injectors on the bottom side.. Its a crude and simple little design. In fact the injectors are Delphi Multec II mini's.. From what I have researched the ones that come on the conversion kit flow a whopping 22.15 lb per hr @58psi and 23.1 @ 63psi.. Not hardly boost worthy BUT the noteworthy thing is those little injectors come off easily and can be replaced... WHY NO ONE HAS SEEMED TO THINK OF THIS IS BEYOND ME.. There are adapters to adapt an o-ring style injector to the slip on line feed style making it an easy swap.

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Adapter to allow a normal oring style injector:

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So, for me the hunt is on for a Multec 2 mini that will flow approx 38-40 lb. Which should allow enough flow to support 350hp at a 75% duty cyle with 6 cylinders. Not that I will need that much but it'll be there if so... From what I have found so far the Multec II minis are available up to 62lb per hr and are commonly used in some LS engines.. The problem is, they are expensive so I would buy a set of 8... Why? again I can use them later on a ls. All eight will support 500 hp
http://www.racetronix.com/Manuals/Injectors/multec2_inj.pdf


For the ECM I would most likely do the 411 Swap so as to tune this soon to be beast using a modern tuning program. Another great thing about the 411, again LS compatible. Which means I can use the same ECM and I wont be losing any licensing credits when I have to re-tune a v8.

I will leave it at here for now, I plan on buying the Turbo kit and injectors next month. I'll post pictures of the build as I go.

 

[90halfton]

Awesome. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. I like fords ecoboost idea. So much for no replacement for displacement. Have a buddy with a built evo, turbo 4 cylinder, pushing 660 HP to 4 wheels. Absolutely embarrasses big block boys.

 

[Scottydc]

Awesome. Looking forward to seeing the finished product. I like fords ecoboost idea. So much for no replacement for displacement. Have a buddy with a built evo, turbo 4 cylinder, pushing 660 HP to 4 wheels. Absolutely embarrasses big block boys.

That's just amazing.

 

[df2x4]

I'm also interested to see how this turns out. I have no plans of abandoning the V6 in my red truck (unless it forcibly removes part of the rotating assembly from the block at some point) and I would love to squeeze some more power out of it. I've considered a turbo build multiple times, but I've kind of been waiting until it needs a rebuild so I can replace a few internals. Looks like you've already got a good starting point. Keep us posted!

 

[99'Subourbon]

The statement there is no replacement for displacement is still very true, and very valid. You have to understand the differences of torque, and horsepower, and how they relate to power and work (as scientific variables). I'm not against 4 bangers, nor any form of forced induction, don't get me wrong, but 4 bangers quickly lose driveability when they start getting to 200%-300% power levels. The reason 4 bangers respond so well to force induction, is because they already lack the cubes to make power(read torque) down low; and require higher rpms to get into their power band. Typically, turbos require the same elevated RPMs to start making serious power (but we'll touch on this more later); hence they pair well.

That said, I'd rather have a v8, and turbo it, than a 4 banger. Cubes, approximate power levels, and adding on turbo's, makes thing (from the most simplest viewpoint) very predictable. 14.7 inHg (psi) atmospheric pressure is what our N/A engines can pull in (not to be confused with flow). For purposes of this example, we'll call it 15 psi. If a 2.0l makes 150 hp naturally aspirated, if we turbo it and run 15 psi, it'll make 300 hp (generally). If we take a 5.3l Vortec making 310 hp naturally aspirated, and turbo it at 15 psi, it'll make 620 horsepower. Both are 100% power gains, but cubes means the v8 makes 310 more horsepower to the 2.0l 150 hp gain.

Although we typically think turbo's require RPMs to spool up, that's the perceived effect and not entirely true. Turbo's require engine load, air flow, to spool. To increase load, you need to increase RPM. What that RPM is, and the air being moved, is determined by the engine. What determines the amount of air being moved? You guessed it, cubes. More cubes, means more air flow, sooner and with less needed RPMs. V8's can run larger turbos, at the same PSI, and make power sooner, than a 4 banger. Larger turbos produces more flow (more power) due to increased area, even though its the same PSI (because PSI is the air within the space compressed, not a set amount of air).

In either application, to run at 300% power increase, you will need some form of built internals. The v8 with sustain much more driveability than the 4 banger, and makes heaps more power, sooner and easier. Nowadays, people are putting 5.3/4.8s in everything, Corollas, 240sx, RX-7s, etc. 600hp evo's disappointing big block boys is completely irrelevant, because you aren't stating the level of mods the big block boys are running. If we were to compare the same mods, on the same vehicle, but running different engines... the big block boys would win 100% of the time. There is no replacement for displacement, all other variables being equal.

Obivously there are many other variables that determine where peak power is made, how much area is under the rpm curve, the amount of airflow that can be supported, etc. cams, heads, valve train, compression ratio, etc. But, 14.7 psi of boost, on any given block, can generally predict power levels. Also, things are not indefinitely linear, power potential drops off as power rises (just like we see with ET's in comparison to HP as well). I am not sure what the drop off is, but from no boost, up to at least 14.7 PSI, every 1 PSI roughly equals a 6.8% power increase. I'd assume that stays pretty relative up to around 30 PSI.

 

[99'Subourbon]

Oh, and sorry for the derailed above post.

Regarding the our trucks limitations with fuel delivery, and the intakes... its not so much the poppets, yes most people think that we are limited to the upgraded spider, but there is companies out there who have done the exact retrofitting you've described. What is more the limiting factor, is the intake, and the fact the spider previously mentioned, runs in the intake tracks - limiting air flow. Things change when we are talking boost, as the air is compressed. But, it's still limiting.

However, I encourage you to at least try, as most don't dare to even attempt the unknown. Good luck - I'd love to see the end result!

 

[Scottydc]

Interesting about 1 psi being a 6.8% power increase. My quick math says for a engine starting with 200hp 10psi should put it at about 336hp. 15psi should get 404. Seems simple enough lol Which may bring up a good point, I have to wonder how much boost the CSFI intake can take before it starts spitting out o-rings on the upper or lower seals. My guess is not much...

 

[99'Subourbon]

Interesting about 1 psi being a 6.8% power increase. My quick math says for a engine starting with 200hp 10psi should put it at about 336hp. 15psi should get 404. Seems simple enough lol Which may bring up a good point, I have to wonder how much boost the CSFI intake can take before it starts spitting out o-rings on the upper or lower seals. My guess is not much...

And its partially plastic, which doesn't quite inspire confidence in its ability to sustain prolonged boost. Aluminum and cast iron can with stand heat well, and it doesn't degrade much at all. Plastic on the other hand weakens every time its heated and cools.

 

[Scottydc]

Oh, and sorry for the derailed above post.

Regarding the our trucks limitations with fuel delivery, and the intakes... its not so much the poppets, yes most people think that we are limited to the upgraded spider, but there is companies out there who have done the exact retrofitting you've described. What is more the limiting factor, is the intake, and the fact the spider previously mentioned, runs in the intake tracks - limiting air flow. Things change when we are talking boost, as the air is compressed. But, it's still limiting.

However, I encourage you to at least try, as most don't dare to even attempt the unknown. Good luck - I'd love to see the end result!

Yep, all of that junk is in the way. Aus Injection makes a kit, it's $699 for a 42lb. Which honestly when you price injectors is not really marked up too terribly high. Couldn't use it later with a v8 though....

With all of the stuff inside the manifold an aux injector in the throttle body to me is a no go, but people have done it, the thought of spraying gas over wiring and in an area not intended for it makes me cringe... I have read that some company back in the day used to make a spacer for the v8s that went between the upper and lower intake pieces... That may come in handy to make room for air. It would easy enough to fabricate one.

 

[90halfton]

The statement there is no replacement for displacement is still very true, and very valid. You have to understand the differences of torque, and horsepower, and how they relate to power and work (as scientific variables). I'm not against 4 bangers, nor any form of forced induction, don't get me wrong, but 4 bangers quickly lose driveability when they start getting to 200%-300% power levels. The reason 4 bangers respond so well to force induction, is because they already lack the cubes to make power(read torque) down low; and require higher rpms to get into their power band. Typically, turbos require the same elevated RPMs to start making serious power (but we'll touch on this more later); hence they pair well.

That said, I'd rather have a v8, and turbo it, than a 4 banger. Cubes, approximate power levels, and adding on turbo's, makes thing (from the most simplest viewpoint) very predictable. 14.7 inHg (psi) atmospheric pressure is what our N/A engines can pull in (not to be confused with flow). For purposes of this example, we'll call it 15 psi. If a 2.0l makes 150 hp naturally aspirated, if we turbo it and run 15 psi, it'll make 300 hp (generally). If we take a 5.3l Vortec making 310 hp naturally aspirated, and turbo it at 15 psi, it'll make 620 horsepower. Both are 100% power gains, but cubes means the v8 makes 310 more horsepower to the 2.0l 150 hp gain.

Although we typically think turbo's require RPMs to spool up, that's the perceived effect and not entirely true. Turbo's require engine load, air flow, to spool. To increase load, you need to increase RPM. What that RPM is, and the air being moved, is determined by the engine. What determines the amount of air being moved? You guessed it, cubes. More cubes, means more air flow, sooner and with less needed RPMs. V8's can run larger turbos, at the same PSI, and make power sooner, than a 4 banger. Larger turbos produces more flow (more power) due to increased area, even though its the same PSI (because PSI is the air within the space compressed, not a set amount of air).

In either application, to run at 300% power increase, you will need some form of built internals. The v8 with sustain much more driveability than the 4 banger, and makes heaps more power, sooner and easier. Nowadays, people are putting 5.3/4.8s in everything, Corollas, 240sx, RX-7s, etc. 600hp evo's disappointing big block boys is completely irrelevant, because you aren't stating the level of mods the big block boys are running. If we were to compare the same mods, on the same vehicle, but running different engines... the big block boys would win 100% of the time. There is no replacement for displacement, all other variables being equal.

Obivously there are many other variables that determine where peak power is made, how much area is under the rpm curve, the amount of airflow that can be supported, etc. cams, heads, valve train, compression ratio, etc. But, 14.7 psi of boost, on any given block, can generally predict power levels. Also, things are not indefinitely linear, power potential drops off as power rises (just like we see with ET's in comparison to HP as well). I am not sure what the drop off is, but from no boost, up to at least 14.7 PSI, every 1 PSI roughly equals a 6.8% power increase. I'd assume that stays pretty relative up to around 30 PSI.

You're completely right about cubes making torque. And a v8. Is for sure ideal. Still a cool idea what he's doing though. And in a small car or lightweight pickup turbos still drive awesome.