Rebuilding an engine - what precision instruments to do measurements

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stutaeng

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How rough was it when you started? How long did you work each bore?

If it was rough enough to catch a finger nail, then you probably needed an overbore instead.

I use a crapload of ATF or MMO to lube the stones and bore while I'm honing, and I work each bore until it comes clean, probably 15-30 seconds.
I don't recall how they looked (just some were "stain-y"). I didn't try to run my finger nail over the bores.

Ok, so I got impatient about looking/finding a quality, older domestic micrometers, and went ahead a just ordered the Chicom Summit set of 0-6" set.

So I confirmed the micrometer was locked at 4.000" (confirmed with those guage blocks and my dial caliper). I set the dial bore guage and it was reading +1.5 as shown on the photo. I checked the bores and got +2.5 at the worse. I measured mid-height. That means that bore measures 4.000" + 10 x 0.0001" = 4.001"...right?

At this point I'm just trying to see if my units are correct...

Oh darn, now I see that bezel rotates to "zero", just like dial indicators.:rolleyes:
 

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Schurkey

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Measure top, middle, bottom, especially where the "staining" is. Measure on the thrust surfaces, and then measure 90 degrees from the thrust surfaces.

Typical bore wear is "bellmouth", biggest at the top of ring travel, just under what is called the "ridge" but is in fact unworn, original cylinder diameter. But cylinders can wear in the middle, or be wavy.
 

stutaeng

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Measure top, middle, bottom, especially where the "staining" is. Measure on the thrust surfaces, and then measure 90 degrees from the thrust surfaces.

Typical bore wear is "bellmouth", biggest at the top of ring travel, just under what is called the "ridge" but is in fact unworn, original cylinder diameter. But cylinders can wear in the middle, or be wavy.
Thank you. I moved some stuff around my garage and got that piece of iron inside. Thing is rough thanks to my neglect :rolleyes:.

I took some measurements, and that's consistent with what I got. I only measured perpendicular to crankshaft axis. That's what I read most of the wear occurs.

According to the source I posted, it looks like I'm out of tolerance for bore diameter...
 

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Schurkey

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Source you posted shows that an LQ9 has a 4.0007--4.0014 bore. Say 4.001. You've got .0035 wear in the worst cylinder.

[Later thought: The bottoms of the cylinders are showing 4.0025-ish. Maybe your bore gauge is off by one or two thousandths?]

The service spec for a 5.7 cylinder (which is also a 4" bore) is .001. Supposedly, any more wear than that requires cylinder reconditioning beyond "glaze-breaking". My 5.7 had .0015 wear, and I'm running it as-is. So far...so good.

When I was in trade school a thousand years ago, I was told that the limit for cylinder wear was .007 for a "grandma" engine. Beyond that absolutely required a re-bore. But I never trusted that high a figure. I'd have said .003--.004 for Grandma, less for anything that's expected to last a long time. .0015--.002 is the max I'm comfortable with, and even then only if it's bellmouth wear.

Wear at the top of the cylinder--typical bellmouth--requires the rings to expand on the "up" strokes, and contract on the "down" strokes. This is not desirable...but it's better than wear in the middle of the cylinders where the rings expand and contract on every stroke. You've got three cylinders where the middles are bigger than the tops.

Time to bore that block. I'm guessing that the first oversize is .010; but maybe it's a metric measurement. [Edit: Time to have a professional measure that block.]

"I" would find a shop that has a torque plate for the honing. Use the same part number gasket under the torque plate that you'd use on the actual build. (That means you'll buy three head gaskets, unless the shop already has the right kind for use with the plate.)
 
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Erik the Awful

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I'm not as finicky as Schurkey. If you follow Uncle Tony's Garage, he just built a 383 Mopar that was overbored .010" with standard pistons and drove it 2000 miles. While that's a bridge too far for me, it shows what you can get away with. My 472 Cadillac has one bore with a vertical scratch. I honed it as much as I dared and ran it with the scratch still catching a fingernail. You can't tell.

You might get some piston slap in cold weather if you hone it out to 4.0050", but I'd run it. The big question is whether you want to spend $300-500 boring the engine, buying new pistons, and having the machine shop swap the pistons onto the rods. If this is your pride and joy, spend the money. If you're a cheapskate like me, hone it and run it.
 

0xDEADBEEF

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It depends on your use case. I was watching something last night and the piston manufacturer spec'd .009 for a marine turbo application.

If you bore it out and get new pistons, you might as well stroke it.
 

Schurkey

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he just built a 383 Mopar that was overbored .010" with standard pistons and drove it 2000 miles.
I worked for a company that had a "parts runner" van. They bored it .020, knurled the standard pistons, and twisted 20-over rings onto 'em.

Knocked like a diesel. That "rebuild" had 20K miles on it.

Knurling pistons (and valve guides) is mostly a lost art; a practice that's gone LONG out of style. Most piston knurling tools make a diamond- or slash-shaped impression, not so different from what you'd find on older ratchet handles.

www.enginebuildermag.com/2017/09/lost-art-knurling-pistons-takes-skill-guts/

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The knurling tool set from Perfect Circle impressed the letters "PC" into the metal.

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Any way you look at it, knurling pistons is pre-1960 technology; when pistons were heavy enough to withstand the process, had giant skirts (or--like Buick continued to use--FULL skirts, not slipper skirts) and labor was cheap.

Labor isn't cheap...but here we are, living in the age of VOWL-19, Biden, and automotive parts shortages so bad that my friend who owns the machine shop's biggest headache is getting parts AT ALL; it's a bonus if he can score them from a single warehouse so he doesn't have three separate shipping charges. Eight weeks out is good news, 'cause otherwise it's three months or Just Not Available.

So maybe piston knurling will come back.

You might get some piston slap in cold weather if you hone it out to 4.0050", but I'd run it. The big question is whether you want to spend $300-500 boring the engine, buying new pistons, and having the machine shop swap the pistons onto the rods. If this is your pride and joy, spend the money. If you're a cheapskate like me, hone it and run it.
That's an option. I still want a pro to measure and inspect that block.

IF (big IF) the tools or technique were giving ~.002 error--the bottom of the cylinder was .002 larger than spec, and only about .002 smaller than the top, which MAYBE means the cylinders have only worn ~.002--a quickie hone might be all it needs.

It depends on your use case. I was watching something last night and the piston manufacturer spec'd .009 for a marine turbo application.
That seems like a lot. And a great deal depends on the expansion of the piston. The ancient "battleship" TRW forgings often called for .005--.007 clearance when run hard (and a Turbo would qualify), then add two more because it's a marine engine probably cooled by lakewater. The cylinders fight to get to 140 degrees--the barrels never get warm enough to expand like a normal engine, but the pistons are hot as hell.

Modern forgings generally need less piston-to-wall clearance; and a non-Marine engine with regulated coolant temp wouldn't need the extra .002.
 
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stutaeng

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It depends on your use case. I was watching something last night and the piston manufacturer spec'd .009 for a marine turbo application.

If you bore it out and get new pistons, you might as well stroke it.
It looks like I was going to get new pistons, and I most likely need a new crankshaft, but planned on reusing rods. The pistons on this engine are removable with those little spiral locks (not pressed fitted.)

So a 408 stroker is a special crankshaft (longer stroke and connecting rods?) and bored 0.030" over? That will require a special/custom tune, right? Sorry, I'm a complete newbie when it comes to internal engine modifications, that's why I'm here. ;)
 

0xDEADBEEF

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It looks like I was going to get new pistons, and I most likely need a new crankshaft, but planned on reusing rods. The pistons on this engine are removable with those little spiral locks (not pressed fitted.)

So a 408 stroker is a special crankshaft (longer stroke and connecting rods?) and bored 0.030" over? That will require a special/custom tune, right? Sorry, I'm a complete newbie when it comes to internal engine modifications, that's why I'm here. ;)

Yeah, it's a longer stroke crank. What kinda budget are we working with?

What's wrong with the crank? The cheapest thing would be to get a 5.3 from the junkyard and take the crank out of it. (I'm pretty sure the 5.3, 6.0, and 6.2 are the same crank, but double check.) You might be able to find a crank on craigslist or something too.

It might run with a stock tune, but your VE will be off. If you add a bunch of compression the timing might be too aggressive as well.
 

stutaeng

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Yeah, it's a longer stroke crank. What kinda budget are we working with?

What's wrong with the crank? The cheapest thing would be to get a 5.3 from the junkyard and take the crank out of it. (I'm pretty sure the 5.3, 6.0, and 6.2 are the same crank, but double check.) You might be able to find a crank on craigslist or something too.

It might run with a stock tune, but your VE will be off. If you add a bunch of compression the timing might be too aggressive as well.
Crank has some grooves from the spun bearing. Finding a take-out 24X 5.3/6.0 from FBMP/craigslist was my original plan...Yes, they are the same. I didn't consider the 6.2.

Budget? :D I guess I hadn't thought about that, LOL. Let me see what the machine shop says.
 
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