Slow Roller

[fancyTBI]

Just posting to say great build so far. I've been following since the first post and am anxious to see more! Welcome to the forum - you'll fit right in.

I also usually take photos of the trucks I pull parts from at the yard. They all have a story to tell and even when they've been junked we can still put them to use. It is surprising what people scrap.

 

[Erik the Awful]

Good choice. 68-70 472 with later 500 heads. It would stroll pretty good and get decent fuel economy for what it is.

Not to sidetrack, but the later 500 heads on an early 472 gives you over 12:1 compression ratio. The later 500s with early 472 heads gives around a 7:1 compression ratio. The early heads are more desired because they don't have an air injection hump impinging on airflow. The best option for the later engines is to swap on a set of ported 425 heads for 9.5:1 compression ratio. The engine in the Jag is currently a 8.5:1 CR '76 500 with a Comp Cam and a shaft rocker setup. In the corner of the shop I have a 10:1 '69 472 with a Howards cam in it and stock rockers on the stock pedestals.

 

[nineno]

Just posting to say great build so far.

Very much appreciated. Thank you.

It is surprising what people scrap.

Yeah, sometimes it's shocking. It's really intriguing when there is a vehicle that has relatively new parts on it.

I was keeping my eye open for a decent rear bumper for this truck. I didn't have any luck for a few years. Then one day I was in the yard on a very specific mission and as I made a beeline for the truck that had the goods I needed, a new-to-the-scrap-yard truck with a brand new (aftermarket) primer black rear bumper had appeared in the week or two since I was in the pull-a-part. After I got the parts I was after, I snagged the rear bumper. (It will make an appearance a bit later on.)

Below are some details on the paint and body work.

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In the late summer of 2023 the owner of a local paint/body shop that my company supplies some consumables to told me business was slow. I had him over to look at the truck and stressed that the truck could be his filler work with no express hurry on getting it done. We agreed on a modest price for the work, and I had the truck towed to the shop where it lived for about three and a half months.

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When the truck left my house, I had almost no idea what color to paint it. I like white vehicles (including OBSs), but I already have 2 white cars. These trucks look great in black (in my opinion), but I didn’t want to deal with the summer heat or the fact that black shows every bit of grime and body imperfection. While I was paying to have some body work done, I knew this wasn’t going to be Concours d'Elegance quality. Hell, this probably wasn’t even going to be trophy-quality work at the local Lions Club car show. So with white and black ruled out, I was gravitating towards a shade of blue...for no apparent reason.

Once the truck arrived at the body shop the proprietor told me that the cheapest course of action was to replace the doors that were starting to rot out and the hood that was a little wonky from…Lord knows what.

Below is a picture of the antenna mounting hole being filled. (There is a small metal patch beneath the green glob of filler, I promise!)

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Here the worse of the two cab corners in-process.

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I was able to find doors in a salvage yard in the (rural) Middle Peninsula of Virginia. I paid $250 for the doors, pulled and delivered to the body shop. That was an incredible deal.

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I found a hood in a local pull-a-part yard and paid $50 for it. (Ironically, the hood had a $15 core charge, so I hauled the wonky 'core hood' back to the yard to collect my $15.)

I also bought a set of "Brock" brand new knock-off 454SS-style mirrors. They’re tiny and I may hate them once I drive the truck, but I wanted to get them painted at the same time as the body. I can always transition to a larger non-body matched (chrome, cosmetic black, etc) mirror if I hate the functionality of these. I’ll also say that the molded plastic mirrors are pretty cheap and may not last very long. Disappointing, but not remotely surprising considering I paid somewhere around $40 for these.

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Next up: Color.

 

[HotWheelsBurban]

Not to sidetrack, but the later 500 heads on an early 472 gives you over 12:1 compression ratio. The later 500s with early 472 heads gives around a 7:1 compression ratio. The early heads are more desired because they don't have an air injection hump impinging on airflow. The best option for the later engines is to swap on a set of ported 425 heads for 9.5:1 compression ratio. The engine in the Jag is currently a 8.5:1 CR '76 500 with a Comp Cam and a shaft rocker setup. In the corner of the shop I have a 10:1 '69 472 with a Howards cam in it and stock rockers on the stock pedestals.

What compression ratio would a set of '74 472 heads have? That's what year my engine is.

 

[Erik the Awful]

8.5:1 As far as I remember, all the later engines should have 76cc chambers and dished pistons. The early engines had 120cc chambers and flat tops. They all have the same bores, but the 500s have more stroke. The important bit to know is that the engines were blueprinted from the factory, and the pistons were very closely matched to the bores. If you take one apart, put the same piston back in its hole. The letter stamped in the block next to the bore is the cylinder size, and the piston should have the same letter stamped on it. There's a different bore grade for every .0002". Grade "E" is 4.3000" - 4.3002".

 

[nineno]

I also bought a set of "Brock" brand new knock-off 454SS-style mirrors. They’re tiny and...

After my last post I thought "I haven't looked around for legit 454 SS mirror recently..."
It turns out there is a set on eBay right now. The asking price is $50 less than I bought the truck for.

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For someone that is restoring a legit 454 SS, or building up a clone/tribute truck, these might be reasonable. The plastic-fantastics will have have to do for my backyard build.

 

[HotWheelsBurban]

8.5:1 As far as I remember, all the later engines should have 76cc chambers and dished pistons. The early engines had 120cc chambers and flat tops. They all have the same bores, but the 500s have more stroke. The important bit to know is that the engines were blueprinted from the factory, and the pistons were very closely matched to the bores. If you take one apart, put the same piston back in its hole. The letter stamped in the block next to the bore is the cylinder size, and the piston should have the same letter stamped on it. There's a different bore grade for every .0002". Grade "E" is 4.3000" - 4.3002".

We got the engine torn down to the short block, and it's been in that condition for at least 35 years. Bored are not really bad looking, I think at some point Dad put ATF in the cylinders. It's a 472 engine but I have a brand new 500 crank for it.
Thanks for the information!

 

[fancyTBI]

After my last post I thought "I haven't looked around for legit 454 SS mirror recently..."
It turns out there is a set on eBay right now. The asking price is $50 less than I bought the truck for.

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For someone that is restoring a legit 454 SS, or building up a clone/tribute truck, these might be reasonable. The plastic-fantastics will have have to do for my backyard build.

That’s pretty expensive but I’m not surprised. The 454SS stuff commands a hefty premium.

 

[jd33173]

Alright forum, it’s a rainy, miserable day here in central Virginia. I’ve got plenty of chores to get to, but first, here is a run-down and pictures of a couple of smaller projects on the truck (so far).

The surface rust on the cab floor cleaned up well with a cup brush on my trusty angle grinder.
I also scuffed the not-rusty areas with rather fine (350 grit, perhaps?) paper on my orbital/palm sander and a light touch. (I only did this so the new paint and/or primer would take to the floor.)

With no structural issues found, I primed and top-coated the entire cab floor, hoping to arrest the rust. (You can see where the rust was in the lower left corn of the picture, under the pedals and nearest the left front cab mount. If anyone cares, I can add a close-up of that sometime.) So far (2 years and counting) the rust hasn't restarted.

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Eventually I’d like to add some damping ("sound deadening") material to the firewall, rear cab wall and door inners. I may not put the noise abating material on the floor because I don’t want to encourage the rust problem that I had to fix in the first place. Recommendations on which acoustic treatment materials are good and work well are much appreciated.

I wire brushed almost the entire frame with the bed off and inner fenders out. I’ll need to go back and address the section under the cab and some areas inside the channel of the frame after the truck can find its way to a lift under its own power. I primed the frame with the maroon-ish/brown Rust-Oleum bare metal primer (shown below). Eventually, I did topcoat the frame with semi-gloss black. I'll show that in a later post. The frame cleaned up extremely well.

I know Rust-Oleum is pretty mediocre in comparison to having a chassis e-coated, powder coated, or even epoxy primed and painted. I would have loved to have done any of those things, but it’s an $800 truck and I don’t have a great way to remove the cab from the frame. So, Rust-Oleum it is.

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Unsurprisingly, the gas tank was filled with stale, nasty…ummm…“stuff.” Luckily, gas tanks aren't too expensive and readily available. I bought a bare sender/pick-up unit and added a Walbro fuel pump that will support more than 400hp. Spoiler alert: That’s more pump than I’ll need.

(I have a spare, new-in-box fuel tank as well. PM me if you’re interested.)

I cut off the OE fuel sender fittings and installed some -6AN fittings since I didn’t know exactly where I was going with the powertrain. I figured -6 was a pretty good universal option for anything I was considering.

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Now, the topic that had generated the most buzz so far: I test-fit a couple of different engine/trans combos. One of the directions I really hoped to go was simply too difficult to make work. I’ve shared a picture (below), but I'll keep the details to a minimum since I am definitely not going this direction any longer.

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A buddy that helped with this little experiment told me that I’d have to call the truck a Jagrolet or a Chevuar, if it had worked out.

So what the heck is going on in this picture?
The engine is a final generation (1994 - 1996.5) Jaguar V12. It has a displacement of 5998cc and is commonly known as the 6.0L variant.
The transmission that Jaguar used behind this engine was a rather unique version of the 4L80e. (Earlier Jaguar V12s used the 700R4.) In the 1990s Aston Martin and Rolls Royce used the same exact variant, as did a few other boutique manufacturers. (There is one attached to this engine in this picture. Trust me.)

Also in this picture you can see the driver side "diving board" engine mount I fabbed-up, trying to make this work. I got very close. The hurdles I couldn't clear (cost effectively or in a reasonable amount of time) were the engine mounts and (likely) exhaust routing. An add-on engine cradle directly above the steering box ports, across to the passenger side and some creative headers probably would have gotten me there. Ultimately, I decided it was better to keep the truck project moving forward and find a different home for this engine.

Now, before I move on, most of you are probably thinking: "That's idiotic. Why would he even try to do that?" Totally fair assessment, and question. The best explanation that I can offer is below:

I've been messing around with the 6.0L variant of Jaguar V12 for many years. Everyone but Jaguar guys (and me - I'm not really a Jag guy) dismiss them as pure garbage. Yes, all Jaguar V12s have some issues, but the 6.0L motors were fairly well sorted out. The problematic areas that remain can be addressed rather easily with modern engine technology and components.

The distributors were always problematic, across every version of Jag V12. The last couple of years the V12s were built with distributorless ignitions which eliminated this problem. Two 6-pack coils (the same coils used in the Ford EDIS-6 system) sit in between the cylinder banks. Love or hate Ford, the EDIS family of ignition was pretty bulletproof. This engine (a 1994 originally built with a distributor) has been upgraded to distributorless system.

The ECUs/PCMs were also woefully inadequate. Jaguar did some really strange things in order to control 12 cylinders and manage emissions with very basic ECUs. With a modern aftermarket ECU (that can handle 12 cylinders) and without having to worry too much about emissions, nearly all of those demons can be addressed. If anyone is really dying to know more about this, I can go into a lot of detail, but we should probably keep it off of a Chevy truck forum!

Of course, no conversation on British cars would be complete without discussing Lucas Electronics. Yes, they suck. But all of that has been stripped off of this engine, so it's no longer an issue. Everything has been or will be replaced with modern, high-quality wire, connectors, sheathing, etc.

Another criticism heaped upon the Jaguar V12 is it's lack of power. Well, the 6.0L variants made 300-330hp with extremely flat torque curves. That's weak by contemporary standards, but that's remarkably well aligned with "high performance" engines of similar displacement in the early to mid-90s. (A 1995 Chevy 5.7L LT1 made 300hp in a Vette...) The other detail frequently cited is that the Jag V12 is huge, and heavy. Both of those assertions are true. The water pump pulley would sit less than 2-inches behind the radiator in the C1500. The engine is LONG, and yes, it is heavy. The combined engine and transmission weigh about 900lbs, depending on the level of dress. Of course, a 1995 454 weighs around 700lbs, alone. A 4L80e takes that combination well over 1000lbs. A 1995 454 also made about 250hp and under 400lb-ft. So the sad old V12 doesn't look so sad, by some comparisons. (ha-ha)

Before any of the more sensitive visitors get too worked up: Yes, we all know that mid-90s powertrains were neutered for many reasons, and that when un-corked they're capable of far greater output.

The final - and not trivial - reason I gave this a shot is because V12s sound glorious. No, the Jag V12 doesn't sound like the small-displacement, high-reving Lamborghini or Ferrari 12 cylinders, but it still sounds mighty fine with a set of pipes on it. Here's a pretty good example:

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Clearly I have an affinity for this family of engine. But why put it in a Chevy truck? Well, because everyone else swaps GM V8s into Jaguars that were built with V12s. I thought it'd be fun to reverse the process and put a Jag V12 in a GM. Some automotive irony, if you will.
To take that a bit further, it was some good old fashioned hot rodding - stuffing some parts together that were never intended to go together, just to see what would happen. There were a lot of interesting problems to solve along the way (some of which I'll touch on later, because they're still a part of the project), and the result - if I had pulled it off - would have been extremely unique. (And yes, it's fair if you want to add "...and stupid" to the last sentence.)

As I've noted several times before, this is an $800 truck. It was rusting away in a field in rural southwest Virginia before I bought it. I knew trying to stuff the Jag motor in it was unlikely to work, but I gave it a shot. The end result is that the old c1500 has lived a few more years.

To close this topic out: If anyone has a good lead on a mid-1970s Jaguar XJ12c (Jaguars short-lived attempt at a muscle-/sports-car) or Race Car
Replicas XJ13 reproduction, let me know!
- Leland Touring Car XJ12C: https://www.motorsportretro.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/1976-Jaguar-XJ12C-Broadspeed-10.jpg
- RCR XJ13: https://race-car-replicas.com/rcr-xj13

Alright. Time to get to some chores. I have to track down a few more pictures and then I'll post some of the other smaller projects I've pursued over the past few years.

Thanks for all the commentary, support and questions so far.

dude you are killin it! nice job

 

[Scooterwrench]

Not to sidetrack, but the later 500 heads on an early 472 gives you over 12:1 compression ratio.

Yeah,I know! Go big or go home!!!!