NBS master cylinder Swap

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Pinger

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Air trapped in the RWAL or other ABS can certainly be a cause of excess pedal travel, too.

Problem I'm having isn't an excess of pedal travel as such. During driving the pedal travel is what would be expected. It's just than when I come to a halt if I keep my foot on the pedal it starts to drop away.
Am I underestimating the Hydroboost pressure applied and it is causing some physical change eg, balooning hose etc? The force on the pedal when this happens would pull the truck up much quicker during driving than the lighter force I do use.
 

Knuckle Dragger

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Will suggest this as well. The OBS master for vacuum boost in most applications has a 1.13" bore. Only exception I know of is the Police/Limited Tahoe with the larger front caliper pistons and it is 1.25". The NBS master is either 1.25" or 1.34" Means that the highest peak hydraulic pressure will come from the smaller OBS master. Properly functioning OBS master cylinder does have a spongy feel to it but for a given input pressure on the input pin will develop the highest pressure therefore give the strongest clamping force on the caliper and the strongest push on the wheel cylinders. Cannot argue with physics. Unless you add a larger diameter or multiple diaghram/chamber booster or a hydroboost for the 1.25" master you will not develop as much braking force.
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The flaw in your theory is you assume a fixed applied pressure at the pedal. While the pedal effort will increase you can apply more pressure with your leg/foot and achieve the same presure at the caliper piston.
 

Supercharged111

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Wait a second...Your 9.5 had different rear brakes? The one I had on my Express van that came off a 6 lug 2500 van had the same exact rear brakes as the 8.5. I eventually welded up the axle flanges, had them redrilled 5 on 5, and reused the stock drums. Initially I also had to swap the backing plates onto it from the 8.5 to replace the ones on the 9.5 that were heavily rusted. The 7100 lbs 5 lug and 7300 lbs 6 lug vans use the same brake parts except drums and rotors. Same pads, same shoes, same calipers, same wheel cylinders, same hardware and same backing plates. The 9.5 even had the same style bolt on flange for the driveshaft as the 8.5. It was almost a bolt-in swap save for the conversion to 5 lug. I actually first swapped to 6 lug front rotors and ran 20x8 Titan wheels with IIRC 265/50R20s. When I got tired of them rubbing the front tires on turns I pulled the axles and had them redrilled, swapped the front rotors back to the stock ones and put the OEM 15" wheels back on.

Must be a truck thing. The Suburbans got the 11" rear drums too, they're a known junkyard bolt on. I don't know if they're leading/trailing or duo servo though as I've never laid eyes on one personally.
 

L31MaxExpress

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Must be a truck thing. The Suburbans got the 11" rear drums too, they're a known junkyard bolt on. I don't know if they're leading/trailing or duo servo though as I've never laid eyes on one personally.

I have the whole 9.5" 14-bolt with the 11" drums out of a TBI era 4x4 Suburban in my 99 Tahoe. Same brakes as the Express van.
 

L31MaxExpress

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The flaw in your theory is you assume a fixed applied pressure at the pedal. While the pedal effort will increase you can apply more pressure with your leg/foot and achieve the same presure at the caliper piston.
As I said before, took all 275 lbs of me standing on the pedal with both feet to get that pressure. A person cannot even get the 1.13" bore master to allow the pedal to touch the cab floor if it is working correctly.
 

L31MaxExpress

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Problem I'm having isn't an excess of pedal travel as such. During driving the pedal travel is what would be expected. It's just than when I come to a halt if I keep my foot on the pedal it starts to drop away.
Am I underestimating the Hydroboost pressure applied and it is causing some physical change eg, balooning hose etc? The force on the pedal when this happens would pull the truck up much quicker during driving than the lighter force I do use.
Russell makes braided stainless brake hoses for these trucks. Makes a big difference in pedal feel. The stock rubber hoses do balloon especially if they are older.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rus-672340?retaillocation=int
 
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Schurkey

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Problem I'm having isn't an excess of pedal travel as such. During driving the pedal travel is what would be expected. It's just than when I come to a halt if I keep my foot on the pedal it starts to drop away.
Am I underestimating the Hydroboost pressure applied and it is causing some physical change eg, balooning hose etc? The force on the pedal when this happens would pull the truck up much quicker during driving than the lighter force I do use.
IF (big IF) there are no external leaks, and IF you are not applying more pedal force once stopped...a slowly sinking pedal is classic symptom of an internally-leaking master cylinder. In other words, you need a new master cylinder that works properly.

If you are increasing pressure on the brake pedal once stopped, having the pedal sink a little bit and then hold firm is totally normal, for all the reasons given in a previous post--caliper flex, hose ballooning, seal distortion, heck, even firewall flex can make a difference in perceived pedal height. If the pedal continues to sink...the master has failed.


The flaw in your theory is you assume a fixed applied pressure at the pedal. While the pedal effort will increase you can apply more pressure with your leg/foot and achieve the same presure at the caliper piston.
I guess.

I can maybe apply increased pedal pressure. YOU can perhaps apply increased pedal pressure. The Original Poster, and everyone else who's ever completed this "mod" can, perhaps, apply increased pedal pressure.

They (we) shouldn't have to. And my knees aren't what they used to be.

Can their sister, mother, teenage kid, valet parking attendant, or the NEXT OWNER of the truck, apply that much pedal pressure? At least one guy removed his GMT800 big-bore master cylinder because he found that in a panic stop, he could NOT apply enough pedal pressure unless he used both feet and a squirt of adrenaline.

The GMT800 big-bore master cylinder "mod" is NOT SAFE particularly if installed on ****** little JB3*-style power boosters. It's bad enough on the larger JB5--6 boosters. Folks are using the GMT800 big-bore master cylinder to crutch another problem in their vehicle's brake system. Essentially, they're "fixing" the wrong thing. They should be adjusting (or upgrading) the rear brakes, removing air from the system--abs valves, or whereever--replacing sticky/seized calipers, replacing glazed or low-friction pads/shoes, or replacing a failed step-bore master cylinder with a properly-functioning step-bore master cylinder.

*Note that the JB3 brakes were so ****** that GM quit using them in the early-'90s. My 88 K1500 came with JB3 brakes, I've since converted to JB6--but the big change was removing the "10-inch" drums for the 11.15" duo-servo drums.

Here's the JB3 booster (used with 1" bore master cylinder) compared to a JB5--6 booster (used with 1 1/8 bore master. ) Bigger master cylinder bore provides less hydraulic advantage, needs stronger power booster to maintain moderate pedal effort.
Photo 1. JB5 booster (left) and JB3 booster (right).
http://hbassociates.us/K1500_2020_Brake_Booster_02.jpg
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Must be a truck thing. The Suburbans got the 11" rear drums too, they're a known junkyard bolt on. I don't know if they're leading/trailing or duo servo though as I've never laid eyes on one personally.
So far as I know, the ONLY leading/trailing shoe rear brakes on GMT400 series vehicles are the "10-inch x 2.25" drum units. Officially, they're 254mm x 57mm, and the drums have a metric measurement cast into them. They're only used on JB 3 and JB/JD 5 brake systems. From JB/JD 6 and higher, you get Duo-Servo drums of increasing diameter and width, or rear discs.

There may--or may not--be a difference in the wheel cylinder diameter on the leading/trailing shoe rear brakes between JB3 and JB/JD5. I haven't looked into that.
 
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Supercharged111

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I have the whole 9.5" 14-bolt with the 11" drums out of a TBI era 4x4 Suburban in my 99 Tahoe. Same brakes as the Express van.

I'm seeing that on Rockauto as well, but failing to find dimensions on the van drums. SUV and van drums are flat, the ends of the truck 11" brake drums are deeper and sort of domed.
 

Supercharged111

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Russell makes braided stainless brake hoses for these trucks. Makes a big difference in pedal feel. The stock rubber hoses do balloon especially if they are older.

I have had them on my 1509 since 2009. Seeing how I did the truck's first fluid flush there all I can say is combined it made a difference. Even the reservoir fluid exchanges were making a difference at that point as the truck's braking system had been badly neglected. This was the beginning of my upgrades and the Abs delete happened here as well now that I'm thinking about it.
 

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IF (big IF) there are no external leaks, and IF you are not applying more pedal force once stopped...a slowly sinking pedal is classic symptom of an internally-leaking master cylinder. In other words, you need a new master cylinder that works properly.

Absolutely no external leaks - confirmed by fluid level in reservoir not budging.
Probability of a new (Raybestos) MC being bad out of the box?

If you are increasing pressure on the brake pedal once stopped, having the pedal sink a little bit and then hold firm is totally normal, for all the reasons given in a previous post--caliper flex, hose ballooning, seal distortion, heck, even firewall flex can make a difference in perceived pedal height. If the pedal continues to sink...the master has failed.

I'll pay more attention to just how much pressure I'm applying.
If I just sit there at a halt with the same pressure on the pedal as it took to bring me to a stop the pedal remains where it is. More pressure and it starts sinking. Steadily and slowly it sinks. Solid doesn't happen.
Probability of a new (Raybestos) MC being bad out of the box?
 
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