Rag Joint Replacement

[great white]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/brg-000935/overview/

I put this in my '97. Cut 6 inches off the shaft and it was a breeze. Works perfect.

Thats what Al thought too. Until the guy showed him the problem with 'em.

Maybe you've got an early 97 with the 96 style shaft. Maybe it hasn't caused problems for you yet. Maybe it never will if you never get into an emerg maneuver situ. Who knows?

I'm just putting the info out, do with it what you will.

 

[Jizanthapus]

I'm going to look under my dash to see if there's a universal under there. Now I'm worried. Haha.

 

[1997chevydriver]

If you had to cut off 6" that sounds like you have the type with the joint under the dash. if that's the case now you have 3 joints in your steering and between those three the second one is the one that can cause problems.

 

[Jizanthapus]

So after doing tons of reading and looking... The 97+ has a U-Joint at the steering wheel to column connection which runs just through the firewall and connects to the intermediate shaft. Given that the first U-Joint (at the steering wheel) is supported in 2 places by the frame of the truck under the dash and at the firewall, it basically eliminates its ability to cause 3-4 inches of travel causing any kind of bind. As long you support every third (in a line) u-joint, it doesn't mess with the geometry as it only allows one direction of movement (vertical or horizontal).

Your chassis and frame do not flex opposite each other nearly enough, unless jumping your truck, to produce a situation in which the shafts could bind from improper geometry.

However, Borgeson DOES NOT support the 97+ with said shaft. In theory, if you were to cut only the bare minimum from the shaft so that there is no COLLAPSE, during an accident, this could cause the driver harm. However, if you cut enough to allow for travel, you should be in the same boat as the OEM shaft. They are really the same principal minus the crappy rag joint. Again, it's at own risk, but I think that alignment guy was misinformed.

From reading problems with the Jeep intermediate shaft in swaps pre 97, the shaft collapses internally and lets your steering wheel move while not turning the gear box. I think that could definitely be a hazard, possibly what the alignment guy had heard of as well.

Just throwing it out there for everyone who stumbles across this!

 

[great white]

So after doing tons of reading and looking... The 97+ has a U-Joint at the steering wheel to column connection which runs just through the firewall and connects to the intermediate shaft. Given that the first U-Joint (at the steering wheel) is supported in 2 places by the frame of the truck under the dash and at the firewall, it basically eliminates its ability to cause 3-4 inches of travel causing any kind of bind. As long you support every third (in a line) u-joint, it doesn't mess with the geometry as it only allows one direction of movement (vertical or horizontal).

Your chassis and frame do not flex opposite each other nearly enough, unless jumping your truck, to produce a situation in which the shafts could bind from improper geometry.

However, Borgeson DOES NOT support the 97+ with said shaft. In theory, if you were to cut only the bare minimum from the shaft so that there is no COLLAPSE, during an accident, this could cause the driver harm. However, if you cut enough to allow for travel, you should be in the same boat as the OEM shaft. They are really the same principal minus the crappy rag joint. Again, it's at own risk, but I think that alignment guy was misinformed.

From reading problems with the Jeep intermediate shaft in swaps pre 97, the shaft collapses internally and lets your steering wheel move while not turning the gear box. I think that could definitely be a hazard, possibly what the alignment guy had heard of as well.

Just throwing it out there for everyone who stumbles across this!

Sorry, but that is bad advice....

 

[TylerZ281500]

agreed. nyhow theres a few ways to do this that ive found from just putsing. its been awhile since ive done any but for instance chop of the rag portion weld on a astro or jeep or 4th gen fbody yoke and retainer. or we burned and cut the rag joint out of one and amchined a aluminum piece that bolts in there the same size as the rag joints was and bolted it in. that way worked great the other one a bit more hokey and the other one i know works is a bit more of a hackjob.

 

[bluex]

After rebuilding my front end an replacing my steering box my steering is nice an tight now, even with a rag joint that has almost 270k on it....

 

[great white]

After rebuilding my front end an replacing my steering box my steering is nice an tight now, even with a rag joint that has almost 270k on it....

While I understand why they used a fabric rubber component (alignment for mass production, NVH, etc) I often wonder why they didn't use a Thomas coupling type arrangement. Flexible, able to run off center, and dead nuts accurate. We use them in some helicopter drive shafts to transmit power where movement could be a concern. Just a bunch of steel discs sandwiched by the through bolts.

I suppose if I think about it, I can answer that myself: NVH and cost.....

 

[Jizanthapus]

So what I'm saying previously is your OEM column is already mounted to the frame and firewall from the factory; It's what holds your column in place. On the 97+, there's a U-Joint at the steering wheel side. So your steering column basically is stabilized by the frame. There's no other U-Joint on the column, therefore as it exits the firewall, the column is supported by the frame.

If you add 2 U-Joints to the intermediate shaft, it wouldn't be the condition needed to cause binding as the column u-joint is stabilized. The column being mounted to the frame eliminates movement past the firewall.

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I have this mod on my truck and have yanked the steering wheel left to right with no issue. I have 35" tires, AGR stage 2 steering box, and AGR high pressure steering pump. I've never heard of this problem of binding before, only that the XJ shafts themselves collapse and fail, which is why I went with a Borgeson.

 

[satxwy]

I guess I need to check into this thread more often!

I would love to put something in that would be a better long term fix than a new rag joint. However, what I'll be dealing with when I put this one in (money mostly) makes just replacing the rag joint an attractive option. If I have to replace it again in two years, or find another solution, I can deal with that then. For now I'm just looking to make it safe and enjoyable to drive above 60 mph again. As for the rest of the front end, most of it was replaced around 190k, pitman and idler arm were about 170k (truck is about 230k now). I cheaped out when I did all that work at 190k though and didn't do inner tie rods. But the other parts were all high end NAPA brand. The truck was pretty recently aligned (<5k miles) so I assume they did a basic check then on front end parts anyway. I'll double check them though. I'm hoping it's not problems with the steering box.

Interesting to note though, I was having alignment problems a while back. After I took it in for one, it came back out with much 'lighter' and looser steering.


Since it seems really simple and straight forward, I should count on it taking 6-7 hours and many 4 letter words right?