LPG/propane thread.

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Pinger

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OK, so I've started the LPG/propane thread I said I would - just don't have time to add anything to it right now (because I have the non-functioning gasoline system to fix)!
Anyway, as a new member has arrived with 'problems' - which may or may not be LPG related - here's a thread where he can ask.
Ditto anyone with any question at all about running on LPG/propane. Even 'why even consider it?'

When I get the chance I'll add more - there's all sorts of stuff to know about (much of it I'm learning on the hoof) and for anyone who is considering running on LPG/propane I have info that can possibly help in deciding whether you want to prioritise LPG/propane running or freely choose between the two. The latter isn't as straightforward as might be imagined - things like gasoline fuel trims for example can get skewed after prolonged periods of LPG/propane operation.

Meantimes, any questions......
 

Pinger

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WHY YOU MIGHT WANT TO.

In the UK this is very simple - cost. In the UK LPG costs not much more than half the price of gasoline and our gasoline prices you would consider insane. This is due to tax and the relative prices in the USA will obviously be different.

There are a couple of other benefits though. Its octane rating is 112 (varies as composition of LPG (liquified petroleum gas) is propane and butane and depends the proportion of each which varies globally) and the benefit of that is obvious to anyone who understands and wants to exploit octane number. The downside though is it cannot 'cool' in the manner that gasoline can.

Another is that being admitted into the engine already in a gaseous form it needs no further vapourisation. This means that cold start enrichment is not required - which further cuts fuelling costs if a lot of short trips starting from cold are a feature.
More usefully, it doesn't wash oil of the bores as does gasoline and/or dilute the engine oil.

A closed loop single mixer system can provide the simplicity of a carburettor with the additional fuelling accuracy of a EFI system. It doesn't even need a fuel pump.

WHY YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO.

An additional tank is required and with cars where space is at a premium this has always been a big drawback - less so for trucks. Some engines can suffer from inlet valve recession (due to the lack of cushioning effect of liquid gasoline) - but many more are immune to it and there are ways to mitigate it.
On EFI engines where gasoline operation is still to be retained it can mess up some of the fuelling parameters and cause the ECU to log faults and or throw on the engine check light.

LPG is a fast burning fuel - once it is lit. It is harder to ignite initially so places high demands on the ignition system so everything on the HT side has to be good and is (inlet) backfire prone if the mixture strength is allowed to get too weak. Because of that last point, it is usually recommended that engines with plastic inlet manifolds do not use single point mixer systems but I can vouch for the continued integrity of a 350 Vortec's plastic manifold after backfire(s). It is however better that a large volume of pre-mixed (carburetted) LPG and air is avoided - ie no huge plenums or LPG filled intercoolers.

The availability of LPG is much reduced compared to gasoline - but obviously this varies globally and its significance too depending on how the vehicle is used.

Next post - a quick overview of the different systems and which are most appropriate for which vehicles.
 

Cantos

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Okay, in my 98 Tahoe is an Prins-System, the tank is on the Place of the sparewheel and can take 75Liter, enough for 370-400km.
A good friend has a 2003 Tahoe and his is an lpg-car, too. But in this Tahoe is an orher system, an Icom, it is nearly the best on the market.
 

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SYSTEMS.
Types of systems - in order of complexity which is really a process of elimination of the newer (costlier) more sophisticated systems on the basis that they are less likely to be of interest here (and if they are - then seek specialist advice).

INJECTION SYSTEMS
To get it out of the way, there are systems that handle LPG as a liquid as they administer it to the engine. But, due to the inconsistent pressure (with temperature) of an LPG holding tank they require a pump inside the tank. These have a poor reputation for reliability - not helped by LPG's lack of lubricating quality. They do have the benefit though of eliminating the need for a reducer/vapouriser which has to be plumbed into the engines cooling system and are quite bulky (and fussy re orientation).

Gas injection though is widely respected and increasingly specified. The usual set up is not dissimilar to a Vortec's spider in that the solenoid injectors which handle the LPG as a gas (as it has previously passed through a reducer/vapouriser) are grouped together then feed the inlet manifold branches via individual supply pipes. This is the preferred method as the injectors are quite bulky and difficult to place advantageously on a manifold in close proximity to the inlet valves.
Both injection systems use the signals sent to the gasoline injectors and via an algorithm make adjustments appropriate to the differing characteristics of the two fuels. The injectors can be batch or sequentially fired depending on the system. This is the preferred system for modern-day engines but, they can throw the vehicle's ECU into fuel trims that can be problematic as they can illuminate the check engine light. They are probably the best system though and anyone seriously considering this for a modern-day vehicle would obviously seek the advice of a seller/installer.

MIXER SYSTEMS
This is where it becomes interesting for the likes of us. I'll explain the simplest open loop system first.
The system comprises a tank, a variety of solenoid valves between it and the reducer/vapouriser, a mixer and a power valve between the reducer/vapouriser and mixer.
Working backwards, the mixer is a venturi fitted upstream of the throttle butterfly (the carb's one is fine as the carb is likely being retained but only a butterfly is actually needed). Air destined for the engine passes through it and creates a slight vacuum which pulls LPG in gas form from the reducer/vapouriser into the mixer's venturi where it is then entrained with the air heading toward the engine. The power valve is akin to a tap but when set retains its setting. It is adjusted during the calibration process and controls maximum LPG flow - in much the same way as a main jet in a carb has ultimate control over fuel supply. The reducer/vapouriser is plumbed into the coolant circuit (via the heater hoses to supply heat as the vapourisation of LPG draws heat and the system could otherwise freeze up). The reducer has a 'sensitivity' setting which is used in conjunction with the mixer's ability to create vacuum and the power valve to enable complete calibration. Note that the reducer/vapouriser does not emit LPG gas under pressure but very slightly below atmospheric (the sensitivity screw adjusts this pressure) hence the need for a venturi. The only other setting is for idling (via an adjustable screw) for conditions when mixer vacuum is low. It can provide LPG gas at a very slight pressure.
That's it. An engine equipped with the above can start on the LPG (just wait a few moments after start-up for the reducer/vapouriser to get some heat before driving off), will happily sit with a carb below it (generally the switching between fuels allows both fuels to be shut off until the carbs float chamber are empty then the LPG is enabled) but cannot be as finally tuned as an closed loop system which requires an O2 sensor which would be vulnerable to dirtying during carb operation.

Closed loop is all the above and is intended for EFI equipped engines with O2 sensors that when running on gasoline do so cleanly enough not to soil their sensors.
The system is calibrated as per the closed loop system but has additionally a stepper motor driven actuator connected electrically to a small ECU. This ECU controls fuel switchover and disabling of the gasoline injectors) but it's main function is to read from the O2 sensors (it also reads from the TPS and CPS but those readings aren't used for mixture control). Once the system is calibrated mechanically (as the closed loop system was) the power valve is then removed and replaced with the actuator which, as it was connected to the ECU during the calibration process and was reading from the O2 sensors, arrived at a 'default setting' akin to the final setting on the power valve. When installed in place of the power valve it goes to this setting. It continues to read from the O2 sensors thus can open and close slightly to keep the mixture strength where it needs to be. How far it can deviate from its default position (in steps) can be programmed into the ECU (very simple procedure) as can it's near closing on over-run (setting and rpm both adjustable).
The main advantages this system has over the open loop one is its ability to (via the actuator) fine tune the mixture to stoichiometric during running and, self tune (the default setting) for temperature and atmospheric changes.
It is simpler than a carb but is a carb with an adjustable main jet under constant control. It integrates well with an EFI engine, doesn't need fuel enrichment from cold (true of all LPG systems) but can cause fuel trim drift under prolonged running on LPG (reverting to gasoline will readjust the fuel trims but takes time). All ignition related controls function as they would under gasoline operation. Optionally, the gasoline pump can be disabled. Both closed and open loop systems can be installed as stand-alone systems - ie no gasoline system with the provision of O2, TPS and CPS sensors for the closed loop system.

Of all the systems, closed loop single mixer systems are the simplest and easiest to work with and give good results. Maybe a little trickier if chasing big power outputs as the mixer size can become critical re lack of vacuum at lower speeds (like throats on a carb) but otherwise simple, reliable and pretty cheap to knock up. They can also (if the actuator is replaced by the pre-set (during initial calibration) power valve) and the solenoid valves hot wired - get you home even if the ECU fails (providing you can disable the gasoline system (pulled pump fuse).
 
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Pinger

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The above posts then should give a rough guide/introduction on LPG propane systems.
As outlined in the first post they enable us Europeans to affordably run big V8s. My previous posts are but an overview. If anyone has more specific questions (or wants anything covered already clarified) ask here. I'm by no means an expert on the subject (but by necessity I'm learning!) but for specific questions or greater detail on what I've mentioned - I can probably find answers/articles and link you to them.
Like any fuel system though, they appear very simple but get more complicated the deeper you dig. The closed loop single point mixer systems being part carb part electronic are amenable to tweaking with low cost kit. Not even jets to change and settings that are configurable with two spanners and a lap top with $40 of software and leads.
If your gasoline prices were double your propane prices - you'd be all over this like a rash!

edit PS.
Not just questions - feel free to add your own thoughts, comments, experiences with LPG/propane.
 
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RichLo

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Wow! this is great. Lots of questions arise after reading this. Firstly, are there any drop-in easy kits out there like there are for generators and small engines?

And sorry for the stupid question here but are there any rules for the fuel tank(s) or can you put a bunch of 20lb grill tanks in the truck bed and run them tied down with ratchet straps? (or better yet a 325-gallon homeowner tank strapped in the back of a long box)
 

Pinger

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Wow! this is great. Lots of questions arise after reading this. Firstly, are there any drop-in easy kits out there like there are for generators and small engines?


The tendency would be to discuss the engine/vehicle in question with your chosen installer (and choose your installer based on the quality of the discussion!) and they would suggest the components.
For a single mixer system (open or closed loop) the key components are the mixer venturi (correct size to permit sufficient air flow for maximum power (big enough) but with enough signal/vacuum (small enough) to pull LPG at lower loads - and the reducer/vapouriser - big enough to flow enough LPG at maximum power and with sufficient adjustability to work with the mixer. There will be kits that provide those and all other hardware - depending on the vehicle in question and demand/availability.
Components though can be sourced individually and cribbed from a set up known to work or a kit bought for DIY installation. Rules vary re certification (and tend to be over-played) and insurance providers usually have to be informed as do government department re road tax but that's the UK - it will vary globally. There's a fair amount of knowledge in the UK on largish V8 conversions due to converting Range Rovers and the likes.
An injection set-up might be better bought as a kit though. Kits rarely include the tank.
Probably, the kits for small engines are drawing gas off the top of the tank. An auto system needs greater flow than the tank can keep up with so has to take the LPG in liquid form from the tank then vapourise and reduce its pressure with a heated reducer/vapouriser.

See the link below to a widely used UK supplier to see what is available. There's also Chinese stuff on the 'net.

https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/?gcli...cpXbc5p7_3H2Z3S-F9LqJ0R2coKFyoYhoCo6wQAvD_BwE

And sorry for the stupid question here but are there any rules for the fuel tank(s) or can you put a bunch of 20lb grill tanks in the truck bed and run them tied down with ratchet straps? (or better yet a 325-gallon homeowner tank strapped in the back of a long box)

In the UK there are rules (for installation to a specific standard - but only in safety - not performance terms) and rules about ground clearance for underslung tanks.
You would really want the correct tank as it is fitted with what is called a 'multi-valve'. This permits filling to the correct level (80% of tank capacity as there must be some gas - not all liquid), has a gauge sender for tank contents, the supply pipe (to engine), the first on/off solenoid valve and safety valves that permit slow release of gas in the event of a fire (to prevent a catastrophic explosion). I think some do use removable tanks but their internal cleanliness isn't as good as a proper auto tank which can cause blockages in the system. (Remember you are drawing liquid which is where any debris will be and it's getting sloshed around so won't settle)
 

Pinger

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So far, so theoretical. Looks like this thread is about to get a lot more 'hands on'.
Checking that my idle screw on my reducer (one of the two adjustments) was completely shuttting off the gas - I found it wasn't. Nowhere close. The problem with that is that at idle it provides so much LPG it would be running rich. Except that the ECU reads the richness from the O2 sensor and closes down the stepper actuator to reduce the LPG flow - as it should. Where's the problem then?
Well, when I go on throttle (the 'out of idle' condition) there isn't enough LPG from the idle to support the engine's need and the actuator has to open up again. And in that moment, the delay in opening creates a momentary weak mixture which can cause an inlet backfire.
If I richen via the main screw such that the actuator doesn't have to move to such an open position in 'out of idle' that should fix it then? Nope. At idle it will be similarly richened and the actuator further closed to compensate such that it still has to move the same amount as before with the consequent delay. The same is true if I weaken it on the main screw. The actuator opening in idle closes but has to go further for out of idle. That delay again. The two adjustments should create a situation where in both 'in idle' and 'out of idle' regimes the actuator is in roughly the same place (it's default position) but this isn't possible with mine. The default position sets itself. And after prolonged idling the default will go to the appropriate setting to compensate for the rich mixture and when driving it will gradually shift to a different position to accommodate the leaner mixture. This creates conflict when moving between idle and driving - and the risk of inlet backfire which is too high on mine. Think of it like a 'progression' issue with a carb and you get the idea.

The reason this is happening is because my reducer/vapouriser is worn (baggy saggy diaphragms) and needs a rebuild. Kits are circa $25 but so far can't find one for my R90S or a suitable new reducer to replace it (the ones for mixer systems don't quite flow enough for the Vortec's needs, the higher rated ones are for injection systems which operate at positive pressure (not the sub-atmospheric mixers need)).

And no matter what solution I go for - new or rebuilt - I will have to go through the 'power valve' calibration process. Hands on indeed....
 
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Pinger

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Decision made and a new reducer/vaporiser has been ordered.
The reducer is the most complex of all the components in a single mixer system. The one I've ordered can be seen below. The cost (converted to USD) is $93 (to which an additional 20% tax is added in the UK). Not a huge price for such key component. The previous one still on the truck has given 18 years of service and it is the flexible membranes within that give up.
To give a sense of scale the large circle at its rear is about the size of a crank harmonic balancer and the LPG gas outlet pipe at the bottom pointing outwards accepts a 3/4'' ID hose. It weighs around four lbs. This one will slot right in where the old one is (next to the battery).



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Pinger

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This is interesting, you should do a write up on converting from gas to LPG. IMO, this is what the enviromentliest should be pushing for. It makes a lot more sense to me than going electric.

It doesn't do anything for CO2 reduction but for NOx and particulates it beats diesels hands down. It should be considered for city use where diesels are at their worst. No better for global pollution then but for local pollution (where the toxins enter our lungs) much better.

In cities where electric is being pushed - flat/apartment dwellers won't always have the charging facilities for electric vehicles - LPG is a viable alternative. But no one wants to make space in a city car for an LPG tank - but will design a car from the ground up around huge battery packs....

Are propane powered forklifts not the only internal combustion trucks allowed to operate indoors?
 
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