another vortec performance question

[JohnnyBarnett1981]

hello all i have asked plenty of good gm mechanics alot of questions about my truck and they all keep telling the same things they say theres nothing you to do to a vortec 350 for performance because theres not really any aftermarket parts offered,they say to either carbuerate it or get a 5.3....i have a 98 gmc ext. cab with 373's and i dont want the newer style trucks and i definatly dont want to get rid of my fuel injection for obvious reasons and i dont know hpow big of a hassel it would be to do a 5.3 swap...what do you guys recommend? is there something we can do with our 350's to get the performance out of them that they are getting out of 5.3's ?

 

[40oz to freedom]

Are you serious? no aftermarket part's for a 350... that's funny. General Motors 350 engine's are more common than zits I'm sure if you search Jegs.com or summitracing.com you can find something for a SB 350.

Intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12496821/

just go to one of those websites and put in your truck info!

BTW, please don't pay attention to stupid people that tell you to swap a 5.3 for a 5.7. I don't know much about the 5.3 but I know no engine can compete with the 350's aftermarket part support.

 

[RHamill]

No performance upgrades for a 350 vortec?!

Headers, 411 pcm, blackbear tune, different cam, bores, strokes.

 

[JohnnyBarnett1981]

411pcm? ive heard about that but never of what it kindof tuning you can do with it...the extent ive heard was it kills your fuel economy but you know how heresay is.. blackbear tune? where would i go to get that done? im sorry for sounding ignorant but im used to the older trucks with endless possibilities so this computerized stuff is very new to me..what im looking for is something that i can drive everyday and and still be able to go places in but be able to spank some kids butts with hot rods as the need arises what kindof cam and headers do you recommend aswell as an intake?

 

[borahshadow]

411pcm? ive heard about that but never of what it kindof tuning you can do with it...the extent ive heard was it kills your fuel economy but you know how heresay is.. blackbear tune? where would i go to get that done? im sorry for sounding ignorant but im used to the older trucks with endless possibilities so this computerized stuff is very new to me..what im looking for is something that i can drive everyday and and still be able to go places in but be able to spank some kids butts with hot rods as the need arises what kindof cam and headers do you recommend aswell as an intake?

The 411 PCM is just a computer swap. The computers in the Gen I Vortecs aren't very tunable but the 411 can control a Gen I Vortec (and a Gen IV if you ever did want to do a 5.3 or 6.0 swap you'd have some of the work already done) The 411 is way more tunable. The 411 PCM itself won't hurt your mileage any. In fact it could potentially help it. The only thing that it allows you do to is have more flexibility while tuning. It is the tune that you put into the 411 that can hurt or help your economy.

If you are going to try to do some substantial mods the 411 would be a good idea because it will allow you to tune the engine for those mods.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is a 383 stroker. That will have a noticeable impact on your mileage from what I hear though. It would make your truck into a torque monster though!

 

[big_mike]

BTW, please don't pay attention to stupid people that tell you to swap a 5.3 for a 5.7. I don't know much about the 5.3 but I know no engine can compete with the 350's aftermarket part support.

Nothing wrong with the GenIII 5.3L motor, especially compared to the Vortec 350 & parts options for the GenIII are just as open as a old school 350 now days. It simply cost more to mod a Vortec engine & get real performance out of it. Not sure why you say ignore the stupid people when you dont even know about the engine your tryin to talk against. The LS series engine platform is the best GM has especially when you try to compare mod cost VS power output.

I'm seriously thinking about swapping in my H/C/I LS1 out of my 99' WS6 when I get the LS3 ready to go in that car. I'll have the 411 PCM swap done by tax time & I really hate to spend money on this Vortec cause it feels like a lost cause. So for me personally I'm only gonna do exhaust, 411 PCM swap & tune only until I get my LS swapped in. Once its in I'll have a better fuel delivery system, better engine, better MPG & more power. Plus tuning will be a breeze like my TA & both can be tuned with the same EFIlive software.

You also might wanna read the differences between a Vortec 350 & a earlier 350, they are not 1 in the same. Try looking up parts specifically for a Vortec & you'll see the limited options.

 

[DieselPower]

Nothing wrong with the GenIII 5.3L motor, especially compared to the Vortec 350 & parts options for the GenIII are just as open as a old school 350 now days. It simply cost more to mod a Vortec engine & get real performance out of it.

Does it really? You can pull stupid levels of power out of a SBC and you can make power for less $$$ than on pretty much anything else. The LS engines have their own benefits - they make good power and they make it higher up on the rpm curve. The Vortec heads will flow plenty of air though, and if you stick a large carburetor on them and a decent camshaft, the vortec will deliver "real performance". It'll do it without all of the electronic stuff which always seems to crap out.

The LS series engine platform is the best GM has especially when you try to compare mod cost VS power output.

The LS builds pretty nice power bone stock. There just isn't the level of competition and selection when it comes to mods with the SBC. Parts still cost more for the LS engines. Start ordering parts to build "real power" out of an LS engine and you'll spend a LOT more than you will to make the same power out of a SBC. You do start out at a higher level though.

You also might wanna read the differences between a Vortec 350 & a earlier 350, they are not 1 in the same. Try looking up parts specifically for a Vortec & you'll see the limited options.

Junk the EFI system and there is a vast range of options! The Vortec 350 gives you a roller cam and some of the best heads GM ever put on an engine. That's a pretty good starting point.

 

[ccreddell]

Are you serious? no aftermarket part's for a 350... that's funny. General Motors 350 engine's are more common than zits I'm sure if you search Jegs.com or summitracing.com you can find something for a SB 350.

Intake: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12496821/

just go to one of those websites and put in your truck info!

BTW, please don't pay attention to stupid people that tell you to swap a 5.3 for a 5.7. I don't know much about the 5.3 but I know no engine can compete with the 350's aftermarket part support.

First of all, the above mentioned intake is for a TBI-nothing in common with a vortec EFI. There are EFI otions for a Vortec though, such as the Pro-flo XT or the marine manifold swap. An LT1 cam (after the 411 swap), exhaust, and a good source of cold air will do wonders.

As far as a 5.3 goes, 300+ HP stock is far better then the sub 200 HP we have now. And with minimal mods (cam, intake, exhaust), your over 400 easy-and youre still getting 20+ MPG. So I dont see any downside there.

 

[big_mike]

Dieselpower, I think you need to do more research on the LS options & power. Many people throw out the "higher RPM power" comment. People fail to remember parts also effect this. So yes, you stick a huge cam in there made for top end drag racing all your power will be up high. Just like any engine. And I'd rather keep the few electronics the LS has & get 20 MPG with 400+ RWHP instead of 12 MPG for the same from a SBC. For instance, I have a good friend running a forged 370 LS with a Procharger making 760 RWHP & he is getting 21 MPG on his street tune. You will not EVER achieve that in a SBC without a EFI system & even then your gonna be hard pressed.

LOL, "real power", come on now. I have spent the last 7yrs doin nothing but LS stuff. You can make sick power from a LS engine & not spend a ton & thats a fact. Mod for mod you'll make more power than a SBC, fact. And no, the Vortec heads were not the best flowing stock head GM offered. Maybe for a SBC, but not the best they have offered. Another example, my personal car. I have a stock LS1 short block with milled stock casting 5.3L heads to bump compression, ported stock TB, stock LS6 intake & baby 224/224 .581/.581 114 cam & I'm making right at 400 RWHP. I got $500 in my heads, $255 for springs, $200 for a used cam & $300 for the intake & $75 for the TB port job by the same guy who did my heads. I'm averaging about 18 MPG untuned. So I have a total of what $1330 in my set-up. Yea, LS performance is so expensive. I guess it is for those who only look in a Jeg's or Summit catalog & see $2k heads. But the same can be said about SBC, you want top shelf parts you gotta pay to play.

I have seen alot of these ill-knowledged comments about the LS engines on this forum. I think alot of people dont truely know what they are talkin about with the GenIII+ engines. there are a few over here but alot of mis-information as well.

 

[DieselPower]

Dieselpower, I think you need to do more research on the LS options & power. Many people throw out the "higher RPM power" comment.

Definitely - but the research I have done shows that 45 years of SBC usage has put a lot of them on the marketplace and that the end result is a lot of aftermarket support. The LS is still fairly new in comparison and there isn't the selection and price level there yet. The "higher rpm" comment is a valid one - and nothing negative. In order to build big HP numbers, you typically have to move up the RPM curve to get there. That doesn't mean the HP numbers aren't real - but it does tend to drop the torque numbers a bit at the lower end.

People fail to remember parts also effect this. So yes, you stick a huge cam in there made for top end drag racing all your power will be up high. Just like any engine.

Nah - you still need the rest of the engine that can support that huge cam. Driveability at lower speeds is negatively impacted as well. The LS does seem to make a decent amount of power throughout a wider rpm range than the SBC.

And I'd rather keep the few electronics the LS has & get 20 MPG with 400+ RWHP instead of 12 MPG for the same from a SBC. For instance, I have a good friend running a forged 370 LS with a Procharger making 760 RWHP & he is getting 21 MPG on his street tune. You will not EVER achieve that in a SBC without a EFI system & even then your gonna be hard pressed.

You aren't going to make 760 RWHP in anything and get 21 mpg. You've gotta burn fuel to make that kind of power. If he's getting 20 mpg, he's not making 760 hp while he's doing it. Mileage depends far more on how you drive, the aerodynamics of a vehicle and the gearing than it does on the fuel system. I've pulled 22 mpg out of a 400+ hp SBC on the highway - without any electronics (outside of the distributor). To make it even better, there wasn't a crank position sensor to fail anywhere on the vehicle.

LOL, "real power", come on now. I have spent the last 7yrs doin nothing but LS stuff. You can make sick power from a LS engine & not spend a ton & thats a fact. Mod for mod you'll make more power than a SBC, fact. And no, the Vortec heads were not the best flowing stock head GM offered. Maybe for a SBC, but not the best they have offered. Another example, my personal car. I have a stock LS1 short block with milled stock casting 5.3L heads to bump compression, ported stock TB, stock LS6 intake & baby 224/224 .581/.581 114 cam & I'm making right at 400 RWHP. I got $500 in my heads, $255 for springs, $200 for a used cam & $300 for the intake & $75 for the TB port job by the same guy who did my heads. I'm averaging about 18 MPG untuned. So I have a total of what $1330 in my set-up. Yea, LS performance is so expensive. I guess it is for those who only look in a Jeg's or Summit catalog & see $2k heads. But the same can be said about SBC, you want top shelf parts you gotta pay to play.

That's not a very fair comparison seeing as you are starting without factoring the engine cost - and we've already agreed that the stock LS comes with a pretty nice amount of power. 400 hp isn't overly ambitious out of a vortec-equipped SBC though, and it is stock out of some of the LS family - so I didn't think you'd consider that "real power"!!! Given the same budget and a vortec motor, I can get a decent cam, roller rockers, a fancy intake manifold, a decent carburetor and plenty of machine shop work to make similar power. Top shelf parts for a SBC are still cheaper than they are for an LS.

I have seen alot of these ill-knowledged comments about the LS engines on this forum. I think alot of people dont truely know what they are talkin about with the GenIII+ engines. there are a few over here but alot of mis-information as well.

I'm comfortable enough with the various engines that fit into a GM to know that the 350 has been a great engine for a long time. The LS has a lot of advantages, but it is a newer and higher tech engine. I'd rather go "old school" with a carb'd 350 and not have to deal with the electronics on the newer engines - including all of the LS and the TBI/TPI/EFI stuff. The only thing better is a mechanically injected turbodiesel!

Having gone the route of a high hp, barely streetable vehicle (no traction control) - I now agree more with an old time hot-rodder friend who stated that he builds his vehicle SBC's up to somewhere between 300-350 hp. That's enough to make you smile when you hit the throttle, it's plenty to get you in trouble if you want - but it's not that expensive, it's very reliable, it's simple... You don't break tranmissions... His race cars were built up for considerably more - but they were either on the track or on a trailer.