Alignment issues

[emeraldgreenextcab]

You must be registered for see images attach

This will be my first post on this forum so I apologize if this is not the correct way or place to post! I am having all kinds of issues getting my truck aligned properly. This is the third time getting it aligned and it still just does not feel right. Steering wheel is off center while driving straight and there is a very dull on center feeling. I am not expecting it to drive or feel like a corvette I just want my truck to be back to how it was before. I have been to two shops so far. The first shop managed to get the alignment feeling good but my steering wheel was super off center so I took it back and when they gave me it back it was off center to the other side! I am fairly certain that my steering wheel has never been off. My alignment felt perfect and super tight before I bumped a curb at like 5 mph and knocked it out of alignment so I know its possible for it to feel like that again... I have confirmed that the knock outs have been taken out, new tires have been balanced, and I have tested all suspension and steering components for play and all looks good so I do not understand what the issue could be. How does this report look? My truck is pretty low miles, been stored inside its whole life, and everything is still original and in great condition. What alignment specs do you all suggest? My truck is lowered in the rear to level it out, but thats about it on mods that could possibly affect alignment. I would like as aggressive alignment as possible to make it feel good, but not so aggressive that I will be wearing through tires like crazy. Thank you all in advance!

 

[Hipster]

I would have like to seen the turn angle numbers(toe while turning) on the sheet which it appears, they didn't check. Also would have liked to seen the original sheet that showed where everything was at after the curbing before anyone starting messing with it. Also would have been nice to see what the factory specs foe SAI and IA are compared to where it's at now. I deal with mostly late model collision work and used to seeing closer side to side numbers. The turn radius numbers if there was an issue there you could be looking for a slightly tweaked steering arm portion of the knuckle or maybe slightly tweaked tie rod. Another thing when you have 5k lbs of truck hit a curb that can cause false or offset feel of center is a twisted sector shaft in the steering box. If you walk in and ask for an alignment you get an alignment. If you walk in a describe a situation you have and need an alignment after diagnosis you get that. Not sure how you handled it but if you didn't say anything nobody is looking for damaged components.. Again, with 5k of weight backing the hit it's not too difficult to bend stuff and you can't always visibly see the damage.

 

[emeraldgreenextcab]

I would have like to seen the turn angle numbers(toe while turning) on the sheet which it appears, they didn't check. Also would have liked to seen the original sheet that showed where everything was at after the curbing before anyone starting messing with it. Also would have been nice to see what the factory specs foe SAI and IA are compared to where it's at now. I deal with mostly late model collision work and used to seeing closer side to side numbers. The turn radius numbers if there was an issue there you could be looking for a slightly tweaked steering arm portion of the knuckle or maybe slightly tweaked tie rod. Another thing when you have 5k lbs of truck hit a curb that can cause false or offset feel of center is a twisted sector shaft in the steering box. If you walk in and ask for an alignment you get an alignment. If you walk in a describe a situation you have and need an alignment after diagnosis you get that. Not sure how you handled it but if you didn't say anything nobody is looking for damaged components.. Again, with 5k of weight backing the hit it's not too difficult to bend stuff and you can't always visibly see the damage.

thank you I will look into all of this and try and find a more reputable shop to help me out. Found a shop in town here that does custom alignments and works on race cars/ custom vehicles mostly so i’ll probably go to them soon. So the first sheet shows where it was at after the curbing and after the first alignment I had done. Brought it back a couple hundred miles later because it just didn’t feel right. The second sheet shows where they adjusted it to and it felt really good, but my steering wheel was super off center. Brought it back and the tech didn’t put it back on the rack he just adjusted it by eye “one turn exactly each side” on the tie rods so I don’t have a sheet for that one. Wasn’t happy about that.. That just made my steering wheel off center to the other side and then it pulled to the right. So I guess i’m actually on my 4th alignment now. Had 3 alignments done at the first shop without success and one more at another shop.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Hipster]

thank you I will look into all of this and try and find a more reputable shop to help me out. Found a shop in town here that does custom alignments and works on race cars/ custom vehicles mostly so i’ll probably go to them soon. So the first sheet shows where it was at after the curbing and after the first alignment I had done. Brought it back a couple hundred miles later because it just didn’t feel right. The second sheet shows where they adjusted it to and it felt really good, but my steering wheel was super off center. Brought it back and the tech didn’t put it back on the rack he just adjusted it by eye “one turn exactly each side” on the tie rods so I don’t have a sheet for that one. Wasn’t happy about that.. That just made my steering wheel off center to the other side and then it pulled to the right. So I guess i’m actually on my 4th alignment now. Had 3 alignments done at the first shop without success and one more at another shop.

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images attach

I don't doubt your experiencig a drivability issue, Weird things happen in a collision and the damage isn't always where you think it would be. The first thing that really needs to happen is to make sure the teering box is in it's center. You don't keep adjusting tie rods until you end up like 2 steering wheel rotations to lock going left and 2.25 turns to lock going right( also can be indicative of a bent sector shaft) . It will forever be out of whack.
On the collision side I'm usually on the frame machine with stuff like this and have access to some pretty sophisticated measuring equipment where the frame gets checked and measured first. If the foundation is crooked so will be the house. Then move outboard to the bolt on's, I can measure just about every single piece in 3 dimensions LxWxH. Then I can triangulate and make comparative measurements for each control arm, the knuckles, measure ball joint locations, measure and make sure the center link is where is should be etc. You can also use this measuring equipment under a car on a lift. In a bout 2-2.5 hrs I could measure the entire frame and all the components have print out and a definitive answer with supporting documentation along with what's necessary for the solution. I've also been in situations where I have to put suspension back under a load and remeasure and re-analyze to find issues. Alignment guys start measuring from the bolt on parts and work backwards from there.

Keep in mind alignments specs are static measurements compared to published engineered specs for a dynamic system that's constantly changing going down the road. Alot of the oldtimers that knew what they were doing are long gone from the business. Start talking about camber gain as a suspension compresses and rebounds or enters and leaves a corner and alot of guys doing alignments wouldn't know what I was talking about.

This is the third time getting it aligned and it still just does not feel right.

when, where, what. why, how, and who? It would benefit you to be able to describe what you are experiencing in better detail. Going straight down the road, when you hit a bump, feels wonky entering and/or leaving a high speed sweeper and coming back to center like an on ramp etc.????? If you're forthcoming in telling the alignment guys you're trying to get to the bottom of a problem they'll be asking some questions.

 

[ralmo94]

What alignment specs do you all suggest?

While I'm not an alignment tech, I also have had a terrible time getting my 2500 aligned. Bought the truck with bad ball joints, took it to a shop got a bunch of shiny parts, and a lazy alignment, guy was doing it in a shop, personally and was going to the lake after he was done . Took it to Les Suab, I think about 4 times, last time I was there, they said I needed new cam bolts, looking back, I think they didn't know about the knock outs,
Took it to a 4x4 specialty shop in Alaska, another shop in Alaska, and lastly to a frame shop. Truck still wanted to go to the right, every time, and liked to chew the front tires. The frame shop said I still had a knock out that needed to come out, they gave the best feeling alignment out of of these, but still chewing up new tires.

Then I did it myself truck handles great now, and does not wear tires.


All that said, the numbers on your sheet look like the specs I was targeting. Heavy self centering feel comes from high Castor, IIRC I could only get about 4.5° on mine, with the camber set as close to 0° as I could.
It was very tiedious, I used plumb lasers and measured to the 64th, set one side, straighten the steering wheel, check again, check other side, adjust, straight wheel, check, check other side, took hours and I would not have done it if I could have got a good alignment from a shop, took about all day.

Sorry for the hijack, but your "numbers" look good to me, Maybe they just didn't straight the wheel up after every toe adjustment?
Too much cross caster, not enough? Maybe frame is bent?

 

[Supercharged111]

Caster centers the wheel and adds negative camber with steering input but kingpin inclination angle, which is not adjustable, but does get knocked out of whack in a collision, also centers the wheel and provides on center feel. That one takes away negative camber with steering input, but it's exponential so doesn't do a whole lot at first whereas I think caster's ability to add camber is linear. I believe this is why Hipster wanted to see alignment values with the wheels turned as well, one (kpi) tends to lead the other (caster) and the influence of the 2 changes through the travel of the wheel.

 

[Hipster]

Caster centers the wheel and adds negative camber with steering input but kingpin inclination angle, which is not adjustable, but does get knocked out of whack in a collision, also centers the wheel and provides on center feel. That one takes away negative camber with steering input, but it's exponential so doesn't do a whole lot at first whereas I think caster's ability to add camber is linear. I believe this is why Hipster wanted to see alignment values with the wheels turned as well, one (kpi) tends to lead the other (caster) and the influence of the 2 changes through the travel of the wheel.

KPI is kind of an old school cary over from solid axle trucks. If you look at the op's sheets which included angle is very close, almost dead nuts side to side as it should be, the SAI( what I believe you call KPI) is a larger percentage off, almost a full degree. Something is bent. Whether sai was adjusted inwards one one side and out on the other somethings not quite right. The upper control arms mounts moved/bent frame, a twisted control arm, tweaked knuckle etc. something is a wee bit off and makes it radically more difficult to find then when it's clearly visible. I don't like positive numbers on one side and a negative number on the other side as such with the camber numbers, while in spec it's at different ends of the spectrum. The turn radius numbers might provide more info as to when this truck act's not quite right and might help narrow the issue down. Alignment machines are more advanced these days but it used to be you checked turn radius numbers at 21 degreess and the other side needed to be at 23 degrees or something along those lines. If it reads 18 or 26 degrees you have a bent steering arm whether it's integral to the knuckle or not. Why none of the shops even checked is beyond me, it was already on the rack and hooked up.

 

[Supercharged111]

KPI is kind of an old school cary over from solid axle trucks. If you look at the op's sheets which included angle is very close, almost dead nuts side to side as it should be, the SAI( what I believe you call KPI) is a larger percentage off, almost a full degree. Something is bent. I don't like positive numbers on one side and a negative number on the other side as such with the camber numbers, while in spec it's at different ends of the spectrum.

I HATE that too, it's like they weren't trying to achieve anything specific. I had some cross SAI when I bent a knuckle on my Camaro. Car had a good alignment and a mean pull. 2 junkyard fresh knuckles and it went straight down the road again. That one's never been on a rack before.

 

[Hipster]

I HATE that too, it's like they weren't trying to achieve anything specific. I had come cross SAI when I bent a knuckle on my Camaro. Car had a good alignment and a mean pull. 2 junkyard fresh knuckles and it went straight down the road again. That one's never been on a rack before.

I tell people all the time you can get camber , caster, and toe in spec all the time but it's just not enough info if you're chasing drivability problems.

 

[Erik the Awful]

Why none of the shops even checked is beyond me, it was already on the rack and hooked up.

I HATE that too, it's like they weren't trying to achieve anything specific.

Very few people are actually trained on alignments. Shops just want that toe-and-go money. I wasn't taught near enough.

Which reminds me, I need to get my Mustang to OK Wheel and Brake this week for an alignment.