ABS and ignition problems

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cdone

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Been lurking for a while, but haven't seen this exact problem from anyone else so thought I'd finally create an account and post...

Vehicle is a '94 K1500 Suburban, JB6 brakes.

A couple weeks ago I was towing a 20' trailer w/ a truck strapped to it, and nearly standing on the brakes to maintain speed down a hill. Got home, pulled the front wheels, and found out my inner pad on one side had gone to metal-on-metal without ever making a sound. Fun times, whatever.

I've had 3/4 ton calipers and front brake hoses sitting around the shop for a while, so decided to put those on along with new pads (obviously). Put bar clamps over the banjo fittings while I was working on everything else to keep the fluid in, but they leaked and MC ran dry, and apparently sucked air into my ABS pump (the 4WAL EBC4). More fun times.

Got everything re-assembled, bled everything following normal manual procedure, took it around the block and just about had to wash my pants. No pedal at all... figured I must have sucked air into the ABS unit and couldn't get it back out, so I started reading more. I don't have a tech1 and don't want to spend $500+ on an antiquated scanner when most of my small fleet is either pre-electronics ('70s) or post-OBD2. So I bled the MC, followed the manual bleed procedure for the EBC4 (opened the side bleeder passages, clamped the valves with bar clamps since I don't have the special tool, top bleeder screws, manual bleed till clean fluid was coming out, etc.), and all then bled all 4 wheels. Still a craptastic pedal, though it didn't quite try to kill me driving around the block. Tried slamming what brake I had in my gravel driveway to cycle the ABS, and... nothing. Then I realized I didn't have an ABS light, ever. Not even when first turning on the vehicle.

Pulled the cluster and realized some jackass in the past pulled the lights he didn't like - ABS being one of them. Changed out all the lights while I had it out, put it back in, and read out the ABS codes manually: 12, 41, 42, 45, 46, 51, 52, 65, 67. After looking at the code chart (found it in the Actron CP9001 manual, p.88 here: https://actron.com/sites/default/files/pdf_english_16152.pdf), basically everything is open circuit (all 3 pulse width modulation and isolation valves, pump motor relay, and pump motor circuit). On top of that, it thinks it's out of a 2WD vehicle (code 12 instead of 14), so that tells me previous jackass who pulled the ABS light probably tried putting in a junk yard unit or something first, and it either never worked or failed. Additionally, the "clear codes" jumper sequence from the FSM doesn't seem to work with this unit. So, I decided to check all the voltages, make sure grounds and power circuits were good, etc.

Good news is, all of the voltages in the connectors seem correct. Bad news is, while I was testing, the 2-pin connector sprung back and arced a few times against the ABS module housing. Didn't seem to blow anything up (no fuses, etc. that I could tell, but suddenly the truck will crank but not start. The ECM seems to be OK - I have an OBD1 scanner that will do most things except cycle ABS, and it's reading everything I would expect it to read. But... no spark. I haven't been down the entire rabbit hole of "what could an arc have blown up somewhere else." I did hear some sort of pop or other noise in the engine compartment when it happened (from somewhere else, not from the arc), but I still have voltage on the 2-pin connector and all the other places I would expect in the ABS connector, and no fuses blown. Could back-EMF from the arc have taken out my ICM? That seems like the most likely bit I can think of? Anything else that would be top of mind to check? This truck has been dead reliable for the 6ish years I've had it, apart from the occasional drained battery for no apparent reason.

Semi-related question (with all that background out of the way) - I have a wrecking yard ABS module (from a 4WD) on the way, but in the short term I was hoping to just bypass the unit and make sure everything else is solid in the brake system. I don't want to cut, bend, or re-flare lines as I plan to put a new module in, but I'm having a helluva time finding adapters for the oversize fittings GM used. Brakequip seems to have one for 1/2-20 to 3/8-24 x 3/16 line (for the fronts), but I can't find anyone who stocks it, locally or online. The rears are more of a pain - if my calipers were correct (the measuring kind, not the brake kind), it looks like the line from the prop valve ends in a 3/8-24 or maybe 7/16-20 (couldn't get on it straight), while the line out to the rear axle seems to be a 9/16-18. Finding adapters, short hoses, unions, or some combination to connect those two has been pretty near impossible. Anyone have a working combination of parts (pref. with part numbers) to connect those two lines? If someone makes about a 1' rubber hose with the correct female fittings on the ends that would be perfect for my test needs, but the catalogs have been failing me trying to look that up. The usual suspects (Raybestos, Centric, Sunsong, etc.) seem to just list by application, but can't filter by fitting size.
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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Vehicle is a '94 K1500 Suburban, JB6 brakes. I've had 3/4 ton calipers and … decided to put those on

If the 3/4 ton calipers were for a six-lug with JB6 brakes, you’re good.

If they were for an 8-lug with JB7 brakes, those are non-Low-Drag calipers. Your OE JB6 MC is a Quick-Take-Up design so, unless you have changed or plan to change the MC, your braking will be sub-par… as in “it’s not wise to leave it that way” sub-par.

Swapping to a JB7 MC should work nicely. This topic gets covered regularly, search GMT400 for “86mm”; the related threads usually get into some detail on the matter.

You might start here:

Thread 'GM "low-drag" calipers - A discussion on JalopyJournal.com'
https://www.gmt400.com/threads/gm-low-drag-calipers-a-discussion-on-jalopyjournal-com.60055/


FINALLY, regarding your crank-no-start problem, get a copy of the factory service manual here (link below) and study the wiring diagrams to determine what may have been affected by the ABS “arc” and precipitated a crank-no-start.

Thread '88-98 Service Manuals'
https://www.gmt400.com/threads/88-98-service-manuals.43575/
 
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cdone

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Thanks for the reply. Calipers are ACDelco p/n 18FR741/18FR742. Fitment notes in the ACDelco site just say "8600 GVW." I initially got the P/Ns off one of the forum sites (don't recall which) with a "brake swap" thread, BUT, I know there's a lot of crap info out there and don't mind changing back to the stock parts if needed (I just have to get some, my old ones are in sad shape). Everything apart from front calipers is currently stock JB6 setup, as far as I know. But, doing the math, the piston in the 18FR741 is only 15% larger surface area, so while I expected a bit of difference in the pedal it doesn't seem like it should go all the way to the floor.

I have the actual paper FSM, Unit repair manual, and wiring diagrams for 1994, and have started looking through them. It seems like the red lead to the 2-pin connector is just tied directly to the + bus (perhaps through a fusible link). It's hot all the time (even with vehicle shut off), and not affected by pulling the brake fuse. So, the sizzle I got between the red lead and ABS unit case shouldn't have been significantly different from, say, arcing a wrench while disconnecting a battery (or an alternator charging lead, if one forgets to disconnect the battery first). I don't think there's anything directly in that circuit, so my question has leaned toward "what could possibly have gotten fried by a bunch of back-EMF from a collapsing arc." With my luck it'll fire right up today and I'll suddenly have an intermittent gremlin to chase.
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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Thanks for the reply. Calipers are ACDelco p/n 18FR741/18FR742. Fitment notes in the ACDelco site just say "8600 GVW." I initially got the P/Ns off one of the forum sites (don't recall which) with a "brake swap" thread, BUT, I know there's a lot of crap info out there and don't mind changing back to the stock parts if needed (I just have to get some, my old ones are in sad shape). Everything apart from front calipers is currently stock JB6 setup, as far as I know. But, doing the math, the piston in the 18FR741 is only 15% larger surface area, so while I expected a bit of difference in the pedal it doesn't seem like it should go all the way to the floor.

Those 8600 GVW calipers aren't the type which work well with the Quick-Take-Up MC. My earlier comments apply.

As you said, they don't explain your "pedal to the floor" issue, which for the moment is presumed to be the ABS. But fixing that issue won't fix the caliiper / MC mix-match issue.


With my luck it'll fire right up today and I'll suddenly have an intermittent gremlin to chase.

Now that would suck :cheers:

You said "no spark", is that really the case... you checked?

I'll looked through the 1998 FSM (different year from yours) at the ABS wiring, and the 12V power seems to be supplied directly from the battery, via the large wire across the engine by to the fuse box, and finally through a large fuse (60A or so).

When it "shorted", the current had to find its way back to the battery. What path did it take, and did the current passing along that path cause a problem? You said it touched the ABS module housing; what's that bolted to, the wheelwell(?), and interconnected via brake lines to... other ground points?

Suppose the momentary current surge may have induced something undesired / deleterious in some other device(s) via inductive coupling?

I remember the wisdom of "disconnect the alternator before welding on a vehicle". I never proved it true or false, just followed the advice.

"back-EMF from a collapsing arc"... never heard of such a thing.

"induced-EMF from a collapsing magnetic field", yeah, but not "back-EMF from a collapsing arc".
 
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cdone

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Thanks for the pointer on the MC. Looks like ACDelco P/N for the 1-1/4 is 18M712, or Raybestos M390257. Thank you Amazon, I'll have it Thursday.

As far as spark - didn't recall that I said that, but I looked back and sure enough I did. That's my working theory because I smell fuel, so I think my injectors are spraying - but no, I haven't pulled anything apart to confirm just yet (planning to do that tonight, weather and time permitting).

On the return path, yeah - wheel well, brake lines. All the low-voltage connectors were unplugged from the ABS module when it happened so I know it didn't go through things like wheel speed sensors and whatnot. The bit about the arc vs magnetic field, basically the arc is/creates a big current surge, so creates a magnetic field, so basically the same thing. I haven't tested to see how strong this might be in practice, but obviously arcs put out a lot of EMF (hence spark gap transmitters were a thing), and makes sense to me that it might create a back-pulse when it collapses. Just a theory, not something I have significant practical knowledge of. :)
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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Thanks for the pointer on the MC. Looks like ACDelco P/N for the 1-1/4 is 18M712, or Raybestos M390257. Thank you Amazon, I'll have it Thursday.

My notes show the ACDelco 18M712 as being for truck with hydroboost. I'll check my notes and update this post. You might check too.

(update) ACDelco 18M1492 is listed for vacuum boost, it has a 1.125" bore.

ACDelco 18M712 has a 1.25" bore, which I've always associated with hydroboost systems. In my notes on GMT400 brake parts I wrote "listed as 'hydraulic booster'".

YMMV. Either would be appropriate for the calipers you have installed. Your JB6 MC should have 1.125" bore, for the record, plus of course the "quick take up" piston at 1.574".
 
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1998_K1500_Sub

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On the return path, yeah - wheel well, brake lines

Yeah, "wheelwell"... so then where?

Evidently, something got hurt in the ruckus.

There's wire from the passenger's fender directly to the battery "-" so there's that path from the wheelwell (via... radiator support?) or paths, as the current will take whatever routes it can in proportion to each route's conductivity (1/R).

Then there's the heavy cable back to the battery "-" from the engine block, which is connected via the head to the firewall, which is connected to the fender, and there to the wheelwell.

Return currents flowing all over the place.

If the ECU's sensor ground (typically on the engine intake manifold somewhere) and logic ground (possibly on the firewall, need to look... maybe they coincide) saw markedly different potentials for an instant or two, damage to the ECU might occur. The ECU's uP might retain it's brains but one of the peripheral I/O circuits in the ECU (output drivers, logic inputs, A/D and D/A converters if present in 1994) might have taken fall.
 
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cdone

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My notes show the ACDelco 18M712 as being for truck with hydroboost. I'll check my notes and update this post. You might check too.

Guh.. I was afeard of that, but found a couple listings saying it was for JB7 and I assumed vacuum boost. I may just try it - right now I have no brakes and no motor, what's the worst that could happen? :-D

Edit: The Amazons had the 18M1492 as a warehouse deal for $43, so come Saturday I'll have both and can take my pick. Leaning toward the 1-1/4" 18M712 as I have a strong leg and hate a mushy pedal, but... my mood may change by Sat. :) If I hate one, I'll have the other on the shelf to swap out.

Regarding the ECU... I'm going to go with my theory that it's the ignition control module, to start with. Maybe even the ignition coil. Why? Because I don't like your theory about the ECU, because it sounds like more of a PITA to fix. :) I'll start tearing into it to check [all the things], but might be this weekend before I get to it. I did learn the local auto parts stores no longer have the gear to test ignition modules. The old Shucks store in town had one like 20 years ago when I had a Ranger that liked to blow them up, but I guess they prefer people to guess and throw parts at things now. :shrug:
 
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cdone

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Sigh... got my new "ABS Module" by UPS from the wrecking yard... and it's a little black box that says "cruise control module" on it. :rolleyes:

They're making it right and shipping the actual ABS unit, but sounds like this saga may not resolve this weekend as I had hoped.
 

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Finally had both the weather and time to start testing things... confirmed I have good fuel deliverey, but no spark. After a bit of poking around with a meter, alao confirmed my ignition coil seems to be fine, but the pickup coil on the distributor is bad. 7.5kOhm across the coil, when the FSM says it should be 500-1500 Ohm, and something like 800 Ohms to ground on one side and 6.5kOhm to ground on the other side.

Still not sure quite how an arc on the ABS pump blew that out, but hoping the damage stopped there. Once she's running I'll get back to the brakes...
 
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