Starting problem

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Schurkey

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None of what follows is important for solving the problem with the truck in this thread. However, I think it's important to correct a small misunderstanding or two.
the oil pressure switch does not sense pressure and energize the relay..
Agreed.

heres how it works..

in the fuel pump relay there is a normal closed path going to the oil pressure switch, and a normal open position going to the fuel pump.. if the relay fails to energize and close the contacts to the fuel pump, when the ignition cranks, the path goes thru the already normally closed side of the fuel pump relay. the oil pressure switch must be getting pressure and close contacts, to allow the reluctor wheel in the distributor to tell the computer that the engine is spinning at least 400 rpm.. the engine has no idea how fast the engine is spinning based on the oil pressure switch.

It's correct, practically verbatim as in a service manual.
No. I'm looking at the wiring diagram for my '88 K1500 (C-K , 1500-3500 is all the same) I believe what follows is "GM Standard" engineering, including vehicles other than GMT400, and model years other than '88.
There are two things that are not correct.
1. The normally-closed contacts on the fuel pump relay are not part of the active circuit when the pump is driven by the oil pressure switch. The normally-closed contacts do have a useful function, but NOT with the oil pressure switch. More on that later, and
2. 400 RPM has nothing to do with anything in the fuel pump power supply.


Power for the fuel pump comes from the battery or the alternator, via the Junction Block on the cowl, under the lil' plastic cover on the passenger side. A fusible link supplies protection to Circuit 440, orange wire. This circuit splits into two branches. One branch supplies power directly to the oil pressure switch, the other branch supplies power to the Normally Open (NO) contacts of the fuel pump relay. The power to the oil pressure switch does NOT go thorough the Normally Closed (NC) contacts of the relay, in fact you could REMOVE the relay and the oil pressure switch would still turn the pump on when it sensed enough pressure to close it's contacts.

If the relay and the oil pressure switch (and the wire harness connecting this mess together) is properly functioning, the current that drives the fuel pump is split between the relay and the oil pressure switch based on Ohm's Law--the division of current may not be equal depending on which part(s) of the circuit have higher resistance.

If the oil pressure switch fails--or the engine has really terrible oil pressure, the pump will be powered by the ECM which energizes the fuel pump relay. The ECM must sense that the engine is running via signal from the pickup coil and ignition module. No ignition pulses, relay is turned off, pump doesn't run.

Conversely, if the relay fails--or is removed--you only need oil pressure to run the pump, but crank times are extended while the engine builds oil pressure.

I believe that the ECM needs to see 400 RPM to begin computer-controlled spark advance, but NOT to power the fuel pump.

What do the NC contacts in the fuel pump relay do? They're connected to a wire, Circuit 490, which if manually connected to system voltage, will run the fuel pump for testing purposes. The ignition does not even have to be "on".

For any operation of the fuel pump--powered by the ECM-energized relay, powered by the oil pump switch, or powered by the test wire, the fuel pump inline fuse must be good. A popped inline fuse will prevent fuel pump operation.

There is also the "Hot Fuel Handling Module" which is connected to the fuel pump relay and the fuel pump circuit on the protected side of the inline fuse. It's tied into the aux. cooling fan relay, and increases the "priming" time. I've never seen a vehicle that has this module. In '88, only LO5 and L19 got them, and only then in some markets. (High altitude? California?)
 
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PlayingWithTBI

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I think my 88 has a hot fuel module, it's a California truck. When I go to start the engine and it's cold it'll crank for about 3 seconds before it fires up but, when it's warm, the engine barely turns over 1 revolution and it fires right up. Maybe it's still priming when I crank it over?
 

delta_p

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So it sounds like the oil pressure switch and the relay are on two independent but parallel circuits to run the pump. Independent in that any one path can nandle current to drive the pump if the other fails, and parallel, in that with both paths operating pump current is shared some amount between the two circuits with the path of least resistance carrying the most current.
 

dave s

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Well there's certainly been a LOT of good information provided in this thread! I picked up my new TPS today and installed it once I got home. I hooked my meter to the blue wire and ground and couldn't get it to show less than a 9. So I used my dremel to elongate the holes more. Got it to a 5. Couldn't figure why idle was so high. I finally figured out that the throttle cable isn't adjustable and because there's a 2" tbi spacer on it the cable was stretched opening the throttle plates ever so slightly and raising idle. I never noticed it before. I popped that clip off and took cable off and it idled right down real nice. So I used the dremel again and egged out the hole on the end of the throttle cable till it just pushed straight on without raising idle. Put clip back on. Idles and runs much smoother than it did last week. Plus it starts right up now! I think my idle ended up around 800 rpm at idle. I remember back in 94 buying a chip and putting into the ecm. I also read the link Peter sent about tuning a tbi. I have no clue what the specs on that chip were 25 years ago so I'm not sure where to set idle. Took a test drive and checked out all the four wheel drive stuff. All working good. So nice to hit key and truck fires right up. I have a lot more work to go so I'm sure you guys will get sick of hearing from me. Lol! Thanks!
 

PlayingWithTBI

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I'm not sure where to set idle.
A good start to set it so it idles @ ~650RPM w/o A/C on. I have mine set up to 750 with A/C on to get a little more flow in freon, water pump, and fan since it gets kinda hot around here.
 

dave s

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A good start to set it so it idles @ ~650RPM w/o A/C on. I have mine set up to 750 with A/C on to get a little more flow in freon, water pump, and fan since it gets kinda hot around here.
I haven't touched it again but may mess with it later today. My A/C no longer works but I haven't even researched that one yet! I'll just rotate that tps ever so little and it'll go on down a bit. Thanks for the heads up.
 

dave s

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Get a scan tool, find out what the commanded idle speed is. Compare to actual idle speed.
I actually looked at one yesterday at Autozone. I decided to replace the O2 sensor just due to the fact I'm pretty sure it's original. They had an OBD1 scan tool and handed it off the shelf for me to see. It must have been there forever, it had a heavy covering of dust on it. Lol. I've read a lot of you guys have the ALDL cables and a program on your laptop to look at stuff. I think I would like to try and see that data. Will the laptop see everything a scantool will see? I googled that cable and read about them on OBD Diagnostics Inc. Cables $60. Looks like a good start.
 

PlayingWithTBI

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Will the laptop see everything a scantool will see?
Yes it will and you can data log for as long as you want with a lap top. You can drive around and wait for whatever problem you have and then replay it and pause whenever you want to see what's going on. TunerPro RT v5 has all kinds of options and screens to show your data. Here's a screen shot of when I caught an issue I had a while back. Every once in a while it would surge while cruising at ~1825RPM. The log would all of a sudden show my engine at 4925RPM which is impossible with the locked TCC. What was happening is my ICM (Ignition Control Module) was throwing false pulses to the ECM which would add fuel (notice O2 mv) causing it to surge. After some research, I changed the almost new Spectra Premium ICM for an AC Delco module and that cured my issue.

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Plus, with some other stuff you can tune your PCM for better performance and/or economy.
 

dave s

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Well I ordered my cable from OBD Diagnostics. Should have it this coming week. Then I'll start getting an education, lol! It took me reading the Edelbrock Theory of Operation 6 times before I got a "feel" for what I needed to change just by driving my Nova. I actually got pretty good at it. Not a pro but understood things very well. So I'm thinking it'll take a long while to get this stuff down. Lol.
 
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