School Me on LS Motors

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Erik the Awful

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Yup, I've seen videos before about valvetrain stability showing the springs shimmying around. I need to rethink the high-end build with some pro-level heads and valvetrain suitable for extended high-rpm. If we can scrape together that kind of money we might be looking at a 7500 rpm rev limit instead.

Balancing the engine is definitely a requirement. I've done a DIY balancing job on a 350, and it made an amazing difference in how smoothly it ran and revved, but I know that a dynamic balance is significantly more important with rpm. Whether we DIY a static balance or have a machinist dynamic balance the bottom end will be determined by budget.

I just discovered that GM Performance has a 454 LSX crate motor that puts out 627 hp with forged internals. At $14k, that may become the high-end build option. Easy button, but it's a pipe dream on top of the pipe dream that this project is.
 

Erik the Awful

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Revving to the moon is not an option. We need the engine to be able to sustain at peak rpm.

Here's a clip from Road Atlanta several years ago when my 24 Hours of Lemons team's E36 BMW lost the clutch. I was driving the whole track in 4th gear, so I came out of the slowest corner way low in rpm, but then came up on cam on the straight. Once the engine hits 6000 rpm you'll notice that I hold it there for fifteen seconds. That's 6000 rpm with the motor pushing a 3000 lb car at 120 mph. Our team did that, lap after lap, all day. The motor had aftermarket springs and overhead cams, but I also give credit to BMW for the build quality.

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Then it got money-shifted to 10,000+ and all the valves looked like this.

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0xDEADBEEF

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6k is really not that much for an LS and I've put in thousands of miles tracking them and even at COTA I've never had to hold it at 6k for 15 seconds.

If you're doing something like top speed runs I could see it.
 

Erik the Awful

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Sorry, the point was that something else broke, and to stay in the game we had to hold 6000 rpm. Having that extra safety margin on the engine gave us that capability.
 

0xDEADBEEF

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RA is one of my favorite tracks in sims, but I've never driven there IRL.

I wish I had more vids from my C5. IIRC, if I was having a good lap at COTA I would be just hitting the rev limiter in 4th into turn 12. I actually raised the limit to 7k just to avoid that shift into 5th. It feels like forever in the car, but it's not.

The C8 just keeps grabbing gears.
 

Road Trip

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Not me!
What's going on there - the stems flexing above the guides (as seems to be suggested) or the entire valve moving in the guide? And why?
Given the working clearances between the I.D. of the valve guide and the
O.D. of the valve stem, we're seeing too much movement for it to be that.
I think that what we're seeing is the stems forced into oscillation above the
guides by the ginormous valve springs?

You know, if you go back 30 years & read about the spring pressures in
use for the flat tappet cams of the day vs. the spring pressures
that are being used today to try to control the heavy roller lifters
on today's cam lobes with such aggressive ramps, we are now
running a lot stronger springs. But at the same time the valve
stem diameters have remained the same?

People also don't realize that when you spec out something
like a Comp Cams XE282, the XE stands for "eXtreme Energy",
and if you read around about this cam series the tradeoff between
max performance vs. max reliabiilty favors the former.

One thing to keep in mind is that with a DOHC design
the cam follower is in direct control by the valve spring.

But on our pushrod motors, the part with the most
mass is the lifter, and that's at the far end of a pushrod,
which in turn goes through a 1.5:1 ratio rocker arm
before we get to the actual valve spring. That means
that the weight of the lifter is actually multiplied by a
factor of 1.5x!

But the folks who are forced by competition (and/or
love for the siren song of a V8 being run way upstairs)
will solve this lifter control issue by adding an
additional set of springs in parallel to the original
valve springs. (The pushrod still couples the valve
spring tension into the center of the lifter, while
the rev kit springs are coupled via the outer
diameter of the lifter.) Hard to explain w/words,
much easier to see in this SBC photo:

SBC 'Rev Kit' installed in the lifter valley, pushing directly on the lifter bodies.
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(credit: 'offshoreonly' website)

The math gets messy & my noggin bogs trying to
understand it all (much less explain it) ...but common
sense would dictate that in order to control everything
from a distance (from breaking into oscillation) you
will have to run a higher spring pressure -- as opposed
to having 2 sets of valve springs working in parallel, each
set of springs directly connected/optimized to the task at hand.

The drawbacks are obvious -- mo' money + extra
aggravation during maintenance. But if your plan it to
build a max-effort motor, but run it at, say, 80-85% of
max rpm (so that it lasts a full season+) ...then the
maintenance drawback is essentially nil.

Maybe with a rev kit your valve stems won't be oscillating
due to being forced to install a gigantic spring kit only at the
valves in order to maintain control over the whole shebang?
Who knows? Maybe taking some reactive stress out of
the vicinity of the valve itself will help prevent dropping
of said valve? (Similar to the divide & conquer approach
to the stresses put on a full-floating
axle vs. the same axle in a conventional diff?)

Sometimes, too much brute force in one area is
simply not as reliable as 2 lesser forces distributed
through the mechanical circuit?

(BTW, I don't claim to know the answer...but I do
enjoy sharing some food for thought like the above.)

****

Bottom line, there's no free lunch in any area of our
modern engines, especially in the valve train.

PS: Since those beehive valvesprings don't have a
single resonant frequency, they really are a worthy
upgrade to the 383 that is sitting under the
stamped steel Chevrolet-scripted 283 valve covers in your
sleeper. :0)

Be careful what you buy & how hard you twist it,
for dropping a valve is a $,$$$+ proposition.

Cheers --
 
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PlayingWithTBI

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People also don't
realize that when you spec out something like a Comp Cams
XE282, the XE stands for "eXtreme Energy", and if you
read around about this cam series the tradeoff between
max performance vs. max reliabiilty favors the former.
Yeah, it's an Extreme Energy cam but, it's XR282HR-10. FWIU The X for Extreme Energy and the R for Roller.
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I'm running that cam in my "383" with 986-16 double springs recommended by Comp Cams. Yes, it's quite a bit more spring pressure than the flat tappet ones that came with these heads (132 seat pressure as apposed to ~110 IIRC)
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But, this cam pretty well flattens out at ~5900 RPM. I'm not too worried about longevity if Blue Print isn't, :biggrin:

Much more and yeah, I'd agree with you.
 
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