'96 K1500 5.7 Crank no start, no changes.

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juror

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Just took advantage of the relatively warm afternoon to spend some quality time under the truck. I also picked up a new pump at the parts store to be ready in case it was the pump. Since I had it, I took a look at the connector and figured out which two pins go to the pump (there are three, my DMM says it's the outer two. The middle is presumably the fuel level sender).

Having determined that, I got under and disconnected the plug that's nestled between the tank and the frame rail. No volts. I got Mrs. Juror to toggle the ignition switch from on to off while I checked and I got no volts.

I popped the lid on the under hood fuse and relay box. I pulled the fuel pump relay, checked the pinout, and bench tested it in the shop with a 12 volt power supply. It clicks as it should. I didn't have enough hands to check continuity on the NO contact, but having gotten a click, I figured I'd check if there was 12V to the coil in the truck. No luck. I got Mrs. Juror to toggle the key from off to on a couple of times and confirmed that it wasn't turning the pump on briefly when you turn the key on.

I got back under the truck, reconnected the pump to the harness, and jumpered the relay contacts. The fuel pump runs, and I get a 4-6" high fountain at the schrader valve if I depress it with the pump running. So I guess I can return that new pump and filter, and I don't need to worry about dropping the tank for the time being either.

Having tried the carb cleaner in the intake trick last night, I got no running/sputtering/other signs of life. I pulled a plug, grounded it on a confirmed-good ground, and had Mrs. Juror crank again. No spark.

Nuts.

A couple other observations:

The under-hood fuses are all good. I didn't test any of the passenger compartment ones because they all appear to be non-essential for the engine to run. I'm open to being corrected on that though.

The volt meter on the dash was previously working (i.e. reading middle of scale at 14V when running, off-scale low when the truck is off). It currently reads off-scale low whether the key is off or on.

The gas gauge at least had some passing resemblance to reality. It's currently off-scale high with the needle around 4 o-clock. No difference if the key is on or off

The coolant temperature gauge is middle of scale at 210 degrees. No change with the key on or off. This is clearly a bogus reading. It got up to something like 50 today.

The oil pressure gauge is at 22 psi. No change key on or off.

The hazards work.

The headlights work. The buzzer beeps when you have the headlights on, the key off, and the door open. The buzzer *also* beeps with the key on and the headlights on. <- Is this a clue that the ignition switch is bad? AIUI, the PO replaced it, but I don't necessarily have a good way to confirm that.

The fan blower was previously working (high only). It is not working at the moment, even with the key on. <- Another clue that the ignition switch is bad?

How do we feel about the ignition switch hypothesis? Is there a master circuit list in the giant service manual that'll tell me what circuits should be on when the key switch is on and off when the key switch is off?
 

Laredo1307

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If the truck was running the same day and then all of a sudden you get crank with no start it's most likely the fuel pump. I've had this happen a couple times on my 96 Tahoe. Fuel pumps are not usually intermittent issues when they fail. They either work or they don't. If it was putting out low pressure the truck would most likely run but you'd be experiencing a different set of issues.

Checking fuel pressure:
- Buy a cheap fuel gauge on amazon
- hook it up to the Schrader valve
- Turn the the key to the on position but do not start the engine. You should see between 60-66psi on a good pump. The line should hold pressure and only bleed off slightly over an extended period. You can probably find more info online. if it is bleeding down you have other issues.
- To check if your spider injection is loosing pressure just clamp off the rubber part of the return line going into the tank. Repeat step 3. If the pressure drops then then either the fuel pressure regulator is failing (it's on the side of the spider, under the intake cowl) or one of more actual injectors are stuck open and leaking fuel into the pistons. If you have the old style poppet injectors and have not upgraded the new electronic style this is very common and you'll want to replace that whole system. But if the spider and/ or fuel pressure regulator were your problem you'd be having another set of issues. If it just cranks and no starts after just driving fine that day, then it's most likely a failed fuel pump.
 

SAATR

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Just took advantage of the relatively warm afternoon to spend some quality time under the truck. I also picked up a new pump at the parts store to be ready in case it was the pump. Since I had it, I took a look at the connector and figured out which two pins go to the pump (there are three, my DMM says it's the outer two. The middle is presumably the fuel level sender).

Having determined that, I got under and disconnected the plug that's nestled between the tank and the frame rail. No volts. I got Mrs. Juror to toggle the ignition switch from on to off while I checked and I got no volts.

I popped the lid on the under hood fuse and relay box. I pulled the fuel pump relay, checked the pinout, and bench tested it in the shop with a 12 volt power supply. It clicks as it should. I didn't have enough hands to check continuity on the NO contact, but having gotten a click, I figured I'd check if there was 12V to the coil in the truck. No luck. I got Mrs. Juror to toggle the key from off to on a couple of times and confirmed that it wasn't turning the pump on briefly when you turn the key on.

I got back under the truck, reconnected the pump to the harness, and jumpered the relay contacts. The fuel pump runs, and I get a 4-6" high fountain at the schrader valve if I depress it with the pump running. So I guess I can return that new pump and filter, and I don't need to worry about dropping the tank for the time being either.

Having tried the carb cleaner in the intake trick last night, I got no running/sputtering/other signs of life. I pulled a plug, grounded it on a confirmed-good ground, and had Mrs. Juror crank again. No spark.

Nuts.

A couple other observations:

The under-hood fuses are all good. I didn't test any of the passenger compartment ones because they all appear to be non-essential for the engine to run. I'm open to being corrected on that though.

The volt meter on the dash was previously working (i.e. reading middle of scale at 14V when running, off-scale low when the truck is off). It currently reads off-scale low whether the key is off or on.

The gas gauge at least had some passing resemblance to reality. It's currently off-scale high with the needle around 4 o-clock. No difference if the key is on or off

The coolant temperature gauge is middle of scale at 210 degrees. No change with the key on or off. This is clearly a bogus reading. It got up to something like 50 today.

The oil pressure gauge is at 22 psi. No change key on or off.

The hazards work.

The headlights work. The buzzer beeps when you have the headlights on, the key off, and the door open. The buzzer *also* beeps with the key on and the headlights on. <- Is this a clue that the ignition switch is bad? AIUI, the PO replaced it, but I don't necessarily have a good way to confirm that.

The fan blower was previously working (high only). It is not working at the moment, even with the key on. <- Another clue that the ignition switch is bad?

How do we feel about the ignition switch hypothesis? Is there a master circuit list in the giant service manual that'll tell me what circuits should be on when the key switch is on and off when the key switch is off?

Look in volume 1 of the 1998 Service manual available for download in the sticky section of this forum. Page 8A-10-2 shows keyswitch power distribution. It appears that the items you have listed are tied into the start and run contacts of the ignition switch. You should have power to the ENG-1, ECM-1, and IGN-E fuses with the key on, as well as the GAUGES fuse in the instrument panel fuse block. If not, your hypothesis of a failed switch (or failed switch output wiring) is likely correct.
 

cc333

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I'm not super well versed in this, but if, in addition to therr being no power to the fuel pump, there's also no spark and the gauges are reading wrong, it sounds like there could be a bad ground connection somewhere.

c
 

Laredo1307

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Sorry, I didn't read your last post very well but as soon as I got to the other observations the first thing that came to mind was the ignition switch. I think you might be on the right path.

Also, the AC blower only working on high is from a faulty blower motor resistor. It's pretty cheap on amazon and there's some videos out there showing how to replace it. Pretty easy.
 

wezmykat

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when my (1994) truck died I thought it was the fuel pump, so I cut a hole in the floor, there was no way I was going to drop the tank by myself in below 0 temps + skid plate on the tank + bolts tend to snap when I unscrew something on this machine so the hole cutting was the only choice
long story short, new fuel pump and fuel filter and fuel lines, truck still cranks no start, timing was a bit off and the cap & rotor were loose, fixed those, still nothing
turned out it was the ignition control module (ICM) from what I have read is a common fail point, the good news is it's very easy and inexpensive to repair

@HotWheelsBurban what exact fuel pump did you buy? I replaced mine and it did not really improve the sitting for a long time first start time
 

HotWheelsBurban

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when my (1994) truck died I thought it was the fuel pump, so I cut a hole in the floor, there was no way I was going to drop the tank by myself in below 0 temps + skid plate on the tank + bolts tend to snap when I unscrew something on this machine so the hole cutting was the only choice
long story short, new fuel pump and fuel filter and fuel lines, truck still cranks no start, timing was a bit off and the cap & rotor were loose, fixed those, still nothing
turned out it was the ignition control module (ICM) from what I have read is a common fail point, the good news is it's very easy and inexpensive to repair

@HotWheelsBurban what exact fuel pump did you buy? I replaced mine and it did not really improve the sitting for a long time first start time
My Burb is a '99, with the 5.7 Vortec. I got a Precision brand new fuel pump, last year around Labor Day weekend. It is lifetime warranty at O'Reilly's; the other brands they had were only 1 or 2 years warranty.
 

juror

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You've all been busy here since I last had a minute to work on the truck. Thanks for all the ideas. I've now gotten a project done, delivered, and paid for and the truck is now back on the list of things to work on now-ish rather than eventually. Which is good, because it has now snowed twice, though not enough to plow. Thankfully. I'm under no illusions: winter is coming.

On to the update:

Look in volume 1 of the 1998 Service manual available for download in the sticky section of this forum. Page 8A-10-2 shows keyswitch power distribution. It appears that the items you have listed are tied into the start and run contacts of the ignition switch. You should have power to the ENG-1, ECM-1, and IGN-E fuses with the key on, as well as the GAUGES fuse in the instrument panel fuse block. If not, your hypothesis of a failed switch (or failed switch output wiring) is likely correct.

Thank you for the pointer. I figured the wiring diagrams had to be in the service manual somewhere. I just hadn't found them yet. If any future soul is reading this and looking at the '96 manual, they're in book two, but the section numbers are the same.

Here's what I've got (referencing pages 8A-10-1 and 8A-10-2):

There are two sources of power going into the ignition switch. They are the circuits identified as IGN-A and IGN-B in the under hood fuse block. I'm starting with IGN-B

IGN-B​

Under the hood, we've got:

IGNE, ECM-I (or ECM-1?), ENG-I (or -1) and FUEL SOL as described above. Powered in RUN and START. I have 0V in run on these

In the passenger compartment:

TRANS. Powered in OFF, RUN, and START. I have 12V in run on this. Bonus: the shift position indicator lights up in the cluster as expected.

GAUGES, AIR BAG, and TURN-B/U. Powered in RUN and START. I have 0V on these.

This confirms that:
1) The IGN-B fuse is good
2) The wiring between the IGN-B fuse and the ignition switch is good.

IGN-A​

These circuits are all in the passenger compartment fuse block:

WIPER, RADIO, RR WIPER (not populated), and PWR-WDO breaker. Powered in RUN and ACC. I have 0V on these.

CRUISE, 4WD, BRAKE, and HTR-A/C. Powered in RUN. I have 0V on these.

This is somewhat less informative. The IGN-A fuse tests good, but I have no in-circuit confirmation that I have power getting to the ignition switch. On the other hand, none of these appear to be vital to the engine running. Let's call these of secondary importance for the moment.

On the third hand, the wipers, radio and power windows have never worked in the truck since I bought it <- This seems like a clue that all has not been good in the world for a while.

I also know that as of the last time the truck ran the heater blower worked (on high only, as noted, but whatever). At least as of then, IGN-A was good and the wiring between IGN-A and the ignition switch was good. I have also had 4WD not engage in the past, and sometimes the blower motor wouldn't run at all. <- It seems that this part of the switch might be intermittently dodgy too.

At this point my plan is to pull the knee panel and get at the ignition switch connector that's up in there, then check continuity of the several contacts that are suspect.

I decided last night that before doing that, I really needed to run a shop vac through the cab and pick up the copious mouse turds. And fish out all the dryer sheets from every nook and cranny. There's a school of thought that mice don't like dryer sheets; based on the evidence of mouse activity, I'm not sure I believe that... [edited to add] I am aware that mice sometimes chew on wires. I'll keep an eye out for such things while I'm in there.

The relevance of this is that I opened the glove box for the first time to vacuum and found ... The original ignition lock cylinder with a GM key in it!

I surmise that the PO replaced the lock cylinder, but not the ignition switch itself. How this would have remedied anything, even temporarily is beyond me, but hey. It's information, and I'll take it.
 
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juror

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Ugh. I got at the connector for the ignition switch, unplugged it, removed the ancillary connectors, fished it up to where I could reach it, and tested the switch with a DMM. The switch tested 100% as specced. Thinking I might have a real problem, likely mouse related, I reassembled the connector, plugged it back in, etc.

On a whim, I decided to give it a go starting the truck. It started. While I'm over the moon that I'm not currently rolling around under the dash looking for mouse-eaten wires, I really hate it when something that wasn't working starts working without a good explanation.

The gauges are reading sane values when the truck is running. The wipers work (on high only). The windows work. 4WD works.

So what do we think? Intermittently bad ignition switch? Maybe they did replace it, and the new one wasn't well-seated? I don't need to plow, so it's decided to work?

Are there any markings on the switch to indicate if it's an OEM part? Should I order a back-up one so that I have one on hand? Has anyone got other thoughts or suggestions that they want to air?
 

juror

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Incidentally, if you all can't find anything else for me to do with this ignition switch, the next jobs on my TODO list are:

Figuring out why the heating element in the dishwasher isn't working
Figuring out why, having now replaced the temperature sensor, the oven is still heating to 75 degrees below what it's set to
Replacing a three-way switch that's gone iffy on me. Sometimes I can turn on the lights for the stairs at the bottom, and sometimes I can't

It occurs to me that many of my problems are electrical at the moment. I'm not sure what that means, but I hope to have non-electrical problems eventually. Or no problems; that would be lovely too.
 
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