Pros and cons on 6.5 diesel

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Conaway7698

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Hey guys, I'm new on here. As of right now I own a 98 ecsb chevy 5.7 with the push button 4wheeldrive..guy at my work is askin to buy it and I was looking into a 96 chevy with the 6.5 in it and I'm little on the scared side to even ask about it because I have heard that they are not good engines and I have never own a diesel before I just don't want to spend the time nor the money fixing everything that could go wrong so is this just me worrying or is there more to them? Good or bad thanks
 

Ruger_556

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As far as indirect injection diesel engines go the Pre-1994 Ford 7.3/6.9 IDI's are a little more reliable...
 

great white

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Rather than tapping my fingers off, i'll just quote a previous thread answer:
♓
*You might want to grab a coffee before you stat reading :) *

Well, the 6.5 can be had cheaply for sure.

The problem is the castings and the electronics aren't quite up to ***** after some decent miles and years are on it.
.

The 6.5 had a nasty habit of breaking cranks, cracking the main webs, cracking heads to the water jackets, and starter "ears" breaking off.

The crank is nodular iron and poorly supported by the block architecture. After a certain amount of LCF (life cycle fatigue) it is susceptible to breakage when the rest of the engine isn't up to *****. A failing harmonic balancer (rubber ring fails as they age) only hurries the process along.

The main webs tend to crack in two places: the main cap bolts and the cap registers. Cracks up to a certain point are "repairable" with a stitch lok insert, cracks in the cap registers are terminal. Unfortunately, the only way to see them is to take the pan off. You pretty much have to lift the engine to get the pan off.

A 94 could have a 599 casting or a 141 casting, maybe a 929. i can't really remember the year breaks off the top of my head. 599's are generally accepted as the best GM casting, but I've seen lots of them cracked. 506 castings (96+) are generally accepted as the worst.

The problem with GM cast blocks is they were designed as fuel efficient diesels, not powerhouses. When dodge changed the diesel game by dropping a medium duty engine (IE: 6BT) in a light truck, GM started wicking up the 6.2 to compete. As the stress went up (IE: over bore, turbocharging, etc) the reliability and parts life came down.

All the GM castings have issues, none are immune. It wasn't properly addressed until GEP (AMG subsidiary) started producing them for the HMMWV in around 2000. They had Navistar/International cast the blocks in their foundries. They also changed the metallurgy (more moly in the blocks, more chromium in the heads) added some beef to the castings (IE: the mains are .020 thicker, head cooling passages redesigned, etc) and did a bit of process refinement (IE: shot peened parts, closer assembly tolerances, machining practices, etc). These still have "506" cast in the intake valley, but are a completely different animal than the GM 506 casting. They are referred to as the "6500 Optimizer". It's just the name GEP hung on them. I have one in my truck.

The electronics are another issue. Right about 94 GM introduced the "electronic diesel". This is the Standyne DS4 pump. It's based on the mechanical DB2 and the mechanical side of the rotary pump is actually pretty good. The problem is the electronic bits hung off it. They were mainly incorporated to address the ever tightening emissions requirements. The pump driver (PMD) was the biggest offender and there are lots of fixes out there. I'm running a Bill Heath relocator kit and it has been trouble free for nearly 4 years now. Others have not been so lucky with other brands. It was more expensive than everyone else's, but Bill offers a 7 year warranty and that was the clincher for me. Turns out it's good stuff.

While the PMD is the biggest offender, the fuel shut off solenoid has failed on me (common for others too) and the optical sensor has also failed on me. The FSOS is an easy fix, the Optical sensor is not. The OS is not officially a field serviceable item. Failure means a new pump. You can replace them, but you need to know what you are doing and you need a scanner that can show you the idle fuel rate to set it right or your throttle will be all buggered up.

Oh, did I mention the throttle is "fly by wire" also? No cable. Mess up the OS and you get a freaked out throttle. Google "optical bump" for more info on how it can mess it up.

Then there's the PCM controlled/vacuum operated wastegate system on the turbo. Works great if it's in good shape. Will make you want to eat a bullet when it has problems.

The fuel system is suceptable to air intrusion when it gets old and rusty. If it gives you problems, that will make you want to eat a bullet too.

Lift pumps are always suspect. GM just seemed to make a crappy pump. Aftermarket ones are just as bad. I sidestepped the whole fuel issue by buying a raptor 100 lift pump and did 1/2 eaton pushlock hose from the tank to the filter manager on the engine. Then braided stainless from the filter manager to the IP since it runs under the intake in the engine valley.

88-95 will also have problems with the oil pressure switch. The power for the lift pump runs through it and burns the contacts because of the load. It's intended to shut the fuel supply down in case you roll the truck (IE: engine stops, no oil pressure). A simple relay system can take the high current load off the OP switch.

The 6.5 TD in stock form is pretty anemic. You pretty much have to get a new 4" exhaust on it and a decent reprogram of the PCM before it wakes up.

Cooling is another problem area. The early 6.5's came with (IIRC) a 5 bladed fan, single thermostats and water pumps not up to the flow requirements. The fan clutch in a 94 is probably pretty tired also and might have lost much/most of it's fluid. Around 96-98 GM dealt with cooling issues a bit better by installing a better fan clutch, 9 bladed fan, dual thermostats (Flow is king) and high flow water pumps.

The 6.5 is an evolutionary dead end. If you want one, you have to become the expert and not a lot transfers over to modern DI diesels. You'll never find anyone who actually knows how to fix them in a shop. Just no money in it...

That's the meat of the issues.

Now the good stuff.

The 14 Bolt FF rear end is nearly indestructible. The 4L80E is probably the best GM transmission from the era. The GMT 400 Diesel truck is probably the best start to swap in another diesel.

If it's in good shape, they make great 6BT swap vehicles. Especially if it's a "full boat" 8600 GVWR chassis. You just have to get used to swapping out front end components a little more often (IE: 6BT weights around 1200 lbs fully dressed).

You're also going to have all the usually GMT400 issues. It's still a 94 GMT400 after all....

If you want the truck, go get it. But be prepared for lots of hair pulling breakdowns or putting mucho bucks in it.

If it doesn't break down; you're golden. But never turn your back on it....

:).
 
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someotherguy

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In other words, you'll either become an expert at fixing them (and still hate life) or you'll just simply hate life.

With apologies to the small handful of 6.5 lovers that "understand them" - I'll just say it. 6.5's suck. Hate away...it's nothing compared to the hate I have for 6.5's. :D

One of my favorite internet discoveries was a post on a forum dedicated to 6.5 lovers, where they were organizing a meet. It didn't take until the 2nd page of the thread before they were cracking jokes about everyone having local wreckers on speed dial.

Richard
 

Conaway7698

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Thank you very much guys..guy at work was telling me that they are super simple to work on I believe he was little wrong,sorry I asked a question that has already been asked but I'm still learning how to find what I want to learn on this forum
 

Powar

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Like all engines: They have their issues. They have their fans. They have their detractors.

When it comes down to it, they're simple and your friend was right in saying that they're fairly easy to service. There are a few modifications that you can do to help them live longer and more trouble-free lives. Great White touched on a lot of the problem areas, and he learned them by experiencing them--- but his truck seems to be a pretty special case of every possible damned thing going wrong. He's sharp, though, and his current rig is one of the best examples of a 6.5-powered truck that works hard and is rewarding to own and operate. Most people don't seem to have to endure such tribulations to get to that point, but he's proof that some do.

They're cheap, fairly efficient, and tow quite well. There are quite a few of them running around with a lot of miles on them.

Drive one, do some reading on the diesel specific forums, then decide if its for you. Some people don't place as much value on the added efficiency and satisfaction of owning and wrenching on something a little different. That's okay.

I have experience with 5.7, 5.3, 5.0, 6.2 and 6.5-powered Chevy trucks. Truthfully, no one of them stands out to me as any worse than the others.
 

SCOTTYINWV

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I would love to find a decent 6.5 truck thanks to all the info on here. They have a bad rep, so they can be had cheap. You jus have to know how to fix them. Research is golden.
 

great white

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Don't get me wrong; they're not a "beginners" diesel truck. But they're not the space shuttle either.

I have a love/hate relationship with mine. I love to hate it.

Mine is reliable, it tows 10,000 lbs with just starting to break a sweat and can touch 20mpg on a good day.

But consider this: I'm in to it for just over 20 grand now. That's purchase price and everything to get it to this point. There's precious little GM original stuff under the hood. I don't mean just replacement parts for GM parts, flat out not GM design. Anything that's a wear part is crap if it's made by GM under a 6.5 hood. Stanadyne isn't doing you any favors under there either.

It also took nearly four years of heartache, screaming, cursing, crying, not having a clue why it's doing what it's doing, wrenching, more cursing, more crying and bloody knuckles.

Basically, after all that crap, I've got stock lb7 Duramax power for more than I would pay for decent lb7 truck. Even if I could squeeze any more hp/torque out of the 6.5, 'd still be limited by the 4L80E's torque rating (which I am already above). An LB7 truck would have an Allison and be good to go for more. Not a lot more, but more with the potential to be built for lots more. The 80E is a great transmission, but not so much when it comes to dealing with the mountains of torque a healthy diesel can put out. The Allison can at least be built for more.

Easy to work on and simple are relative. Compared to a common rail Duramax, yeah fairly simple. Easy to work on? Not really, more or less the same.

To do anything with the ds4, you need specific equipment. Obd1 you need something like ENGH's GMTDScantech, OBDII you're pretty much limited to "car code obdII" for bidirectional access. You need bidirectional to command such functions as TDCO and time set. Also things like injector shut off (useful for chasing down cylinder issues). Or you can buy the ultra pricey TECHII hardware and try to find a way to keep it current (dealer only).

Changing injectors are easy on the drivers side, but you're back to wanting to eat a bullet on the passenger side. Duramax injectors are no fun either, but thats more to do with frigging up the injector cups. Step up to the LBZ/LLY era trucks and injectors aren't a problem at all. At least, no more than any other modern diesel.

Price wise, they not bad compared to other diesels. To either buy or fix. Buying is cheap because of their (well earned) bad rep. It's mostly because of the original "injector pump debacle" (was actually the PMD, not the pump), but they had lots of other faults that were equally as bad and maintains the bad rep.

Parts prices are not too bad. A bargain if compared to modern diesels. For example: injectors run 500 bucks for a set of 8 Bosch originals. A Duramax is going to cost just over twice that for one nozzle (depending where you buy). 6.5 injectors also have to be changed about every 100,000 for reliable running.

Let's also not forget that when something goes wrong you're on your own.

Utterly, totally, completely on your own.

You buddies aren't going to have a clue. The local diesel shop is going to be mostly in the dark. The dealer is going to look at you like you have three heads with such and old piece of crap (if they even have someone who remembers a 6.5). Even if they do take it in, you'll be paying out yer arse only to hear "we can't fix it" or "we need to change the injector pump" which is where the GM troubleshooting charts end (see previous comment on PMD failure).

You end up scouring the internet for any scrap of information that may lead you to a fix. More often than not, you just find more garbage that doesn't help. Local shops (even diesel ones) are useless. They (and gm) would just rather forget them altogether.

I've even seen guys turned away at the door with "we don't work on those". Something as simple as air in the line can have you chasing your tail for weeks and wanting to pour gas all over it and have a marshmellow roast. I've seen one crank for nearly 5 hours before it fired, lift pump working, injectors out, it just would not purge.

When my engine dropped its guts, I was on a trip and was backed into a corner. It cracked a piston crown and pressurized the crank case. Blew oil up and out the dipstick and oil filler and then all over the engine bay. I had to spend 8 grand on a new engine and another 2 grand to have it installed (on a trip, not tools or space). We popped the oil pan off once it was on the floor and the mains were all cracked to sh!te also. Another common 6.5 fault and another time bomb waiting to happen. This was the "internet experts" favorite block for strength: the much vaunted 599 block. So much for the internet......:rolleyes: If it's a 6.X cast by GM, it's crap. There were so many build quality issues in just the block casting itself that it's laughable. Don't get me started on things like heads and cranks....

If I had had the option at the time to sh!te-can the whole thing I would have. But I didn't so it was drop a new one in and ride 'er 'till she bucks.

The thing about a 6.5 compared to a 6.6 (since I have to compare it to something) is it's pariah or orphan status. Weak to start with, no one knows how to fix them anymore and no aftermarket support. A duramx truck is 180 out from that. Keep in mind anything older is going to need work just because it is old. But you will be touching nearly everything on a 6.5.

No, there's only one way to own a 6.5 long term: you have to totally commit to it. All your time, all your money, all your sanity. You have to deal with being a "diesel orphan" and getting weird looks from other "diesel guys" and gearheads. You have to buy all the tools and equipment and you have to buy all the oem literature. Even then, you're only 50% of the way to being able to live with one long term.

When/if mine calves again, its gone. I'll finally be able to cut my losses and turn it into the boat anchor it is.

My recommendation for you is if you are looking for a cheap, simple reliable diesel is to pass on a 6.5 powered truck.

By the time you end up getting rid of it you will have spent more than its worth and have had more than one "side of the road screaming session".

I drive one, but my opinion of them is they were a marginal design in NA form and a complete pile in forced induction form.

Unless you want to spend a boatload of money to make it "acceptable" that is.....I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.
 
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Powar

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I have a love hate relationship with mine. I love to hate it.

This tells it all.

There are some competent mechanics. There are some aftermarket parts, though it'll never be the powerhouse that a Cummins, Duramax or PowerStroke can be. There are some knowledgeable forums, websites, and companies that can help.

I'm truly sorry that your experience was so bad, and I'm sorry that you admittedly love to hate it. I say this because I've followed your build thread and I completely respect and appreciate the level of work that you do. I'd have really enjoyed seeing what you could have done with that $8,000 that you spent in emergency repairs. Your emotions regarding what this truck cost you in both money and sanity shape the tone of your posts about these engines. I get that, and I hope that others do as well when they read them.

Not all of them are bad. Not all of them blow up away from home and cost $8,000 to replace. Most of them don't blow up at all.

If someone goes into 6.5 ownership with realistic expectations and a little bit of knowledge of what to look out for, it's highly unlikely that their experience would be as bad as great white's has been. Maybe it would be, but most are not. It might even be a good experience at a fair price, as I and many others have found.
 

great white

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This tells it all.

There are some competent mechanics. There are some aftermarket parts, though it'll never be the powerhouse that a Cummins, Duramax or PowerStroke can be. There are some knowledgeable forums, websites, and companies that can help.

I'm truly sorry that your experience was so bad, and I'm sorry that you admittedly love to hate it. I say this because I've followed your build thread and I completely respect and appreciate the level of work that you do. I'd have really enjoyed seeing what you could have done with that $8,000 that you spent in emergency repairs. Your emotions regarding what this truck cost you in both money and sanity shape the tone of your posts about these engines. I get that, and I hope that others do as well when they read them.

Not all of them are bad. Not all of them blow up away from home and cost $8,000 to replace. Most of them don't blow up at all.

If someone goes into 6.5 ownership with realistic expectations and a little bit of knowledge of what to look out for, it's highly unlikely that their experience would be as bad as great white's has been. Maybe it would be, but most are not. It might even be a good experience at a fair price, as I and many others have found.

No, they're crap.

It's all in the basic design coupled with GM's slipshod execution of it.

Had GM left them as the MPG engines they were originally designed to be, they might not be living in exile in the diesel world today. They'd be with the old LoPo IH/Ford IDI's, fondly remembered as lo powered and reliable and not the outcast problem child they became.

But they pushed it past where it should be chasing the other manufacturers.

They also pushed the Standyne parts out the door before they had them sorted because they were chasing emissions it could no longer meet. Standyne took that one right on the nose. GM has a long history of that with their suppliers. Many have closed their doors because of it. AlphaTherm is one that comes to mind. Stanadyne is a giant in other areas, so it weathered the storm.

Any young wrench needs to stay away from the 6.x series. Both form a reliability standpoint and an educational standpoint.

Even when I got down into the engineering of it, it's crap. From design and metallurgy to production errors and assembly; pure crap.

GM never admits these things, just relying on "brand loyalty" and "slogans" to carry the day. Probably why most fuel troubleshooting ends with "replace injection pump". GM passing the buck to a sub contractor (Standayne) yet again....

rebuilders pretty much just scrap 6.x blocks and source overseas replacements, wrecking yards usually won't even sell a used 6.X. One yard I know of just yanks 'em whether they drive in under their own power of on the rollback. When I asked why, they simply stated "too many comebacks, not worth the trouble". Same with the rebuilders I've talked to. Too much trouble: if it's not junked already, it will come back shortly after it goes out.

My opinion is not just based on my experiences, it never is. I research these things fairly thoroughly and my position in industry helps enable that. My opinion is not based on personal experiences or anectdotal internet evidence. Not trying to be harsh, my apologies if it comes across that way. Not my intent.

To the OP: Spend the money on a Duramax,12/24V or 'stroke and move on to viable engines/technology.

You'll be better off at the end of the day.

Just get one that's been well cared for. Even a good vehicle/design is subject to problems if poorly maintained.....:(
 
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