1999 Gen VI EFI to Q Jet 4L80E

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Road Trip

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Was that "only" Caddy? I thought several of GMs divisions had that...in '75 only, first year of Mod Quad. I think it was gotten-rid-of for '76.
I haven't seen one in ages. Everything I've taken apart has the black plastic "shot glass" where the bellows was.
Almost every Mod Quad Q-Jet I worked on also had the shot glass fuel stuffer. I only remember
one car having the actual aneroid device, I *think* it was a Caddy, and it actually
looked like the pic in the manual:

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Intrigued, I looked at the customer's license plate, and it was from Colorado. (!)

Never, ever thought that I would be discussing this Q-Jet altitude compensator sighting
in public 40+ years after the fact. Wild.
 

amrush2112

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Greetings,

Really enjoyed reading both your project proposal as well as all of the follow-on
discussion by the ECU subject matter experts -- I've actually wondered about the
pros & cons & real-world feasibility of fabbing up a Q-Jet / 4L80-E hybrid that's good
enough to be a 'get to drive' instead of a 'have to sell' machine. Amazing
how many of my implementation questions were answered...even ones I hadn't
thought of yet on my own. :0)

Anyway, I'm not going to try to persuade you to convert the truck to
carburetion. Or, for that matter, attempt to persuade you to try to
grok EFI. Instead, I'd ask you to simply figure out which of the
2 different approaches will make you actually look forward to opening
the hood (hopefully in preparation for a bucket list road trip) ...and that
is the way to go.

****

Having said that, hypothetically speaking let's assume that you decide
to go ahead and return to Venturi-land. And that all the remaining
ECU <> 4L80-E details are properly sorted out.

So now we're down to choosing a carburetor that isn't just good enough
for a trailer queen or dedicated 1/4 mile racer. Instead, the carburetion is
good enough in the real world to be used for daily driving / carefree
cross-country touring.

Although I may be in the minority, IMHO the absolute best combination
of driveability, efficiency, and full-throttle operation is the Quadrajet.

More specifically, a Quadrajet that is carefully dialed in to your powerplant
according to Doe Roe's book from the mid-'70s titled "Rochester Carburetors":

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I just checked, and even though this book has been out of print for ages,
there are currently copies of this book for sale, from rough to NOS condition,
for ~$12 & up. IF you decide to run a Q-Jet and don't already have this in your
shop library, do yourself a favor & pick up a copy.

FWIW, Doug Roe worked at GM's AZ proving grounds, and was also a
motorsports competitor, especially in hillclimbs. His knowledge of how to tune
these carbs to the specific needs of a particular build is encyclopedic.

NOTE: Many people don't realize that the part-throttle driveability of a carb
is determined mainly by the strength of the venturi signal obtained from the
air being ingested into the engine. In the case of the Q-Jet, not only are
the primaries small (high velocity airflow) but they are also stuffed with a triple
venturi setup. Jetted up properly, this design quickly responds to the slightest
change in throttle position. (near-zero lag)

NOTE: The only other carb I can think of that comes close to the throttle
response of a modern EFI setup is the Holley 4180 4-bbl that was used
on the '83-'85 Ford 5.0 HO motors. The biggest difference between this
carb vs it's 4160 ancestor was the use of the large annular discharge venturi
in the primaries. The main justification was more precise metering for
lower emissions (again, due to a much stronger venturi signal) ...but the
side effect was improved throttle response/driveability. As a matter of fact,
my first new car was a '84.5 Mustang GT with the 5.0/5-spd, and it drove
EFI good -- made for an entertaining daily driver!

Last but not least, the sound of a Quadrajet at WOT on top of a sharp
350 or 454 (preferably with air cleaner lid flipped) *still* gives me
goosebumps. If everything else technically came up even, the siren song of
the old Q-Jet at full throat would tip the scales for yours truly in favor
of the old school solution.

Good thing we aren't neighbors...I got a feeling that some dumb stuff
would commence in short order. :0)

From one old dude to another best of luck with whatever you brew up!
Great book! Yes I am familiar with it. I don't have it but I know of it. Will get a copy. Thanks for the input!
 

amrush2112

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The other "must-have" book for Q-jets was authored by Cliff Ruggles. It's immensely easier to read than the Roe book, has color photos, and like every SA Design book ever published, too few pages all sourced from Communist China.

www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Modify-Rochester-Quadrajet-Carburetors/dp/1932494189/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3FXQF8KXIRH8S
xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

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Haven't seen that one! Will check it out. Thanks.
 

amrush2112

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Just wanted to close the loop on this. The info in this book neatly dovetails
with the book I already use. Wanted to share a big thumbs up for your
recommendation:
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One thing that definitely impressed me was that on p. 105 was the first time I've
ever read in print about a trick setup (courtesy of Pontiac) that we used to unfair advantage
back in the early '80s. We used what's shown in the book on a 355ci SBC that we
built/patterned after the '70 LT-1. (Note: We swapped this into a '75 Chevy Monza
that originally came with a sad, asthmatic 262ci/2bbl SBC. At least it had the 4-speed.)

No dyno sheets, but the 355 with the parts we pieced together promised
~3x the suds of the original 262. After we found/destroyed/upgraded all the
associated too-weak drivetrain & suspension bits, the car eventually
became a genuine sleeper.

Pontiac used the Q-Jet on all of their hottest single 4-bbl offerings that actually
made it to showroom floor -- unlike Chevy, which put out plenty of stout engines
equipped with the Q-Jet, but outsourced (insourced?) the Holley 4-bbl for use on
their top of the line 'halo' motors.

...but back to Mr. Ruggles book. After rebuilding/dialing in scores of Q-Jets,
I found that you could really set those Pontiac secondary air valves to open up
quicker than all the other ones. (Chevy, Olds, Buick, Caddy, etc)

The secret was the slotted openings (and associated larger holes supplying
the 'secondary accelerator pump shot' on the leading edges of those huge
air valves. So, instead of the air valve having to open a few degrees
(while pulling against the vacuum break & preload spring) before
the 'accelerator pump' discharge holes would be exposed to air flow, the
Pontiac version started with the accelerator pump delivery just as soon
as the 2 1/4" secondary throttles were opened up by the driver.

The difference in responsiveness was not subtle. You could really throw
your buddy back in the seat with a crisp downshift if they weren't paying
attention. :0)

Of course the Pontiac Q-Jet would not fit on the SBC due to the
forward-facing fuel inlet forcing the fuel line directly into the SBC's thermostat
housing, so we were forced to use the Pontiac top on a modified Chevy Q-Jet
body (with it's side-facing fuel inlet).

It was well worth the aggravation -- thanks to the advantageous power/weight ratio,
the right centrifugal advance weights in the distributor, etc., downshifting &
snapping the throttles wide open gave the same sensation as a Holley double-pumper
...for a lot less money, for we were sourcing all our go-faster carburetor
bits at the local Treasure Yards.

****

Up 'til now, despite visiting more than a few rabbit-holes, I have seen
zero discussion about this Pontiac Q-Jet feature...and nobody I've ever
talked to knew what I was describing. I'm impressed with the whole
book...but I was jazzed when I came across the discussion starting
on p. 105.

Again, big thumbs up for your recommendation. And who knows,
maybe some GMT400/Q-Jet enthusiast will do something similar
and make the tranny behind their engine really work for a living.

Cheers --
I still have my 68 GTO 400 HO 4 speed and will DEFINITELY be using this book when I am going through it. I always loved the simplicity of a Q Jet and once you get them dialed in they STAY dialed in! I've ran Holley 750 DP and 850 DP on 455s and while they do the job quite well they do not run as effective as the Q Jet does in proper tune. Once you get close all it takes is one backfire through the carb and you are changing power valve on Holley carb. Done that one a bunch. Greatly appreciate the comment!
 

amrush2112

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So update. Got tied up with a lot of things but am getting closer to diving into the swap. Have been working on getting GTO to run but now have to pull that motor because distributor is seized in bore on the 400 motor. CRAP! So truck will have to wait a bit as I can't have another vehicle down while I have my 93 down doing a sbc swap. I apparently have a sickness lol. I just found a 66 Olds Cutlass that has a 455 swapped in it. Price was just too good and can't pass up a rust free big block car with a t400 and a 12 bolt!
 

Schurkey

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now have to pull that motor because distributor is seized in bore on the 400 motor.
Pull the engine because the distributor is stuck???

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Brutalize it a bit with a wrench.
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It IS possible to break the distributor housing...but you'd have to work at it, and even if you do...you were planning to pull the engine anyway.
 

L31MaxExpress

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Was that "only" Caddy? I thought several of GMs divisions had that...in '75 only, first year of Mod Quad. I think it was gotten-rid-of for '76.

I haven't seen one in ages. Everything I've taken apart has the black plastic "shot glass" where the bellows was.


Good point. Saw a lot of those on early-80s pickups. Lotsa folks thought it was a mixture-control solenoid, but the visible plastic part was a different color from a MC Solenoid.
No TPS on those 84-86ish trucks and vans either. Water outlet had a 2nd port for the temperature switch as well.
 

L31MaxExpress

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Almost every Mod Quad Q-Jet I worked on also had the shot glass fuel stuffer. I only remember
one car having the actual aneroid device, I *think* it was a Caddy, and it actually
looked like the pic in the manual:

You must be registered for see images attach


Intrigued, I looked at the customer's license plate, and it was from Colorado. (!)

Never, ever thought that I would be discussing this Q-Jet altitude compensator sighting
in public 40+ years after the fact. Wild.

I have one I need the rubber seal for the hot idle compensator on. Some of the kits once included the little rubber cone button seal for the compensating device, but seems impossible to find.
 

L31MaxExpress

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FWIW I have both the Doug Roe and Cliff Ruggles book. I have been sucessfully building Q-Jets for more than 20 years myself. I have the Thorxen tool set for the CCC ones too. I once had a source for chips to reprogram the CCC computers, but they have long dried up.
 
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