‘97 SWB 5.7 4L60E 0411 swapped…build dyno sheet…

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jaybee

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Something is definitely wrong. You're not even getting stock hp, not even if you factor in the normal difference between flywheel hp and rear wheel hp. The curve looks wrong. You've got the start of a really nice chart up to 3,600rpm, then all goes blah. Did the dyno give you any air/fuel readings? Did they pull the plugs to read them? Seems like it could be rich or lean, based on what we know here. There's really no way to tell without an AFR chart to go along with torque and horsepower. The spider injector has well more than enough capacity to exceed that power. Any smell of fuel in the exhaust?
 

L31MaxExpress

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Something is definitely wrong. You're not even getting stock hp, not even if you factor in the normal difference between flywheel hp and rear wheel hp. The curve looks wrong. You've got the start of a really nice chart up to 3,600rpm, then all goes blah. Did the dyno give you any air/fuel readings? Did they pull the plugs to read them? Seems like it could be rich or lean, based on what we know here. There's really no way to tell without an AFR chart to go along with torque and horsepower. The spider injector has well more than enough capacity to exceed that power. Any smell of fuel in the exhaust?

Does not look like a normal graph to me though. Makes me wonder what is really going on. The torque seems extremely low and there is no way the thing is out of fuel at 3,500 rpm due to the injectors. My L31 made 185 whp and 250 wtq stock on a Mustang dyno. On a dynojet it would have made the normal ~200 whp. After the GM 6395 cam, 1.6 rockers, tri-headers and tuning it made 229 whp and 304 wtq with bad valve float. I had also switched from the 4L60E and 10 bolt to the 4L85E and 9.5 SF rear axle by that point. I swapped the springs out for Pac 1218s and put Comp 787 retainers on it. Power increased to 257 whp and 310 wtq and the curve was much smoother. At that power level, I switched to E85 and still had some headroom injector wise. On E85 it went to 272 whp and 330 wtq. The stock spider fed my 383 up to 5,200 rpm before it ran out of fuel. At 5,200 my 383 is making ~470 hp at the crank, which is why I said the stock spider is easily capable of 400-450 hp.

I also do not understand why a performance shop could not do any work on a non-LS. Unless the wiring for the 02 sensor was removed, adding an 02 sensor past the collector and plugging it in, is not rocket science.

2-bar MAP sensor needs the correct custom operating system programmed into the computer, but both HP Tuners and EFI Live have that setup as an easy upgrade to do.

The wiring for the MAP and 02 sensors is the same as a LS.

Seems more or less they just did not want to mess with it. Like most shops that call themself tuning shops, probably copy paste basic LS tunes that are close into the PCM, adjust the power enrichment multiplier and call it good. They can turn that kind of tuning around in 1-2 hours and 3-4 dyno pulls. Then they give the vehicle back to the customer, the customer floors the vehicle pulling away and it sets them back in the seat more and they are happy for a couple days until they start noticing all the driveability flaws.
 

97SWBCHEVY

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Something is definitely wrong. You're not even getting stock hp, not even if you factor in the normal difference between flywheel hp and rear wheel hp. The curve looks wrong. You've got the start of a really nice chart up to 3,600rpm, then all goes blah. Did the dyno give you any air/fuel readings? Did they pull the plugs to read them? Seems like it could be rich or lean, based on what we know here. There's really no way to tell without an AFR chart to go along with torque and horsepower. The spider injector has well more than enough capacity to exceed that power. Any smell of fuel in the exhaust?
The graph is all I got from them…their normal office lady wasn’t there and told me she would email me everything when she got back in…and all the email had was the graph…they strapped it down, guy hooked up his laptop, they had one device/tool secured to the end of the exhaust from the right bank side…and the cable ran over by his computer but I have no idea what readings it provided…or if he even plugged it in to his laptop…and that’s about all they/he did…definitely didn’t pull any spark plugs!
It wasn’t drivable before taking it to them it, as far as going down the road/highway…it would backfire etc…but it would fire right up and drive fine to move it around a parking lot… He basically got it to where we could take it for a “test drive” around the block…and the graph is from the 2nd run through whatever you call it…he only did the two and said that all, or the best he could do cause of the fuel issues, running out of fuel, and the O2 sensors problem…
To me it seems like it’s loading up, even at idle sometimes…and when I’m just cruising at a steady speed…but then it’s like it’s got a rev limiter on it when I get on it and the rpm’s are up… I’m just not sure where to start to get things headed in the right direction…
 

Erik the Awful

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I didn’t go bigger on the size of injectors…I just bought the new style OEM specs replacement that did away with the factory “poppet” style/design…so I shouldn’t need to know the “duty cycle” for it correct? As far as the “air/fuel alpha” in the exhaust, I have no idea…I don’t really know one single thing about “tuning” other than the term “tuning” and I wasn’t wanting/planning to learn
Thanks for the clarification on injector size. You'll still want to know the duty cycle. Properly sized injectors will run near 80% at WOT. If your injectors are 90-100% duty cycle, they're too small. You shouldn't have that problem. Air/fuel alpha is just a fancy term for the percentage rich or lean you are. You need the O2 sensor for this. Sure, his machine can sniff the tailpipe, but an O2 sensor is better. Also, your engine absolutely needs the O2 signal to run correctly.

I realize now that I was way wrong in thinking I could take my truck to this place and trust that when they got done doing what they are in the business of doing, that I’d have a truck that’s pretty close to being dialed in and good to go…and the red flag I should’ve paid attention to was at one point during a phone conversation they slid in a disclaimer that since the engine in the truck was a L31 5.7 and not an “LS swap” that their mechanics would be unable to perform any work on the truck and/or engine other than tuning it…
I don’t even know what I should’ve expected to get from them as far as data/info etc…for example fuel pressure…rpm’s, timing, etc…etc… all I got was the one sheet with the graph…hp & torque…nothing else…is that normal, or should I have gotten more???
You don't need to be a tuner, but "let the buyer beware" means that you need to go in with enough knowledge to protect your cornhole. If all they did was toss a dyno sheet at you want walk away, they certainly aren't communicating or documenting well enough.

Seems more or less they just did not want to mess with it. Like most shops that call themself tuning shops, probably copy paste basic LS tunes that are close into the PCM, adjust the power enrichment multiplier and call it good. They can turn that kind of tuning around in 1-2 hours and 3-4 dyno pulls. Then they give the vehicle back to the customer, the customer floors the vehicle pulling away and it sets them back in the seat more and they are happy for a couple days until they start noticing all the driveability flaws.
As soon as he realized the O2 sensor wasn't working he should have turned you away and said, "Come back when this is fixed." These guys aren't running a tuning shop, they're playing with LS motors and trying to get paid for half-@$$ing it. Professionalism matters, and they don't have it.
 

97SWBCHEVY

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Does not look like a normal graph to me though. Makes me wonder what is really going on. The torque seems extremely low and there is no way the thing is out of fuel at 3,500 rpm due to the injectors. My L31 made 185 whp and 250 wtq stock on a Mustang dyno. On a dynojet it would have made the normal ~200 whp. After the GM 6395 cam, 1.6 rockers, tri-headers and tuning it made 229 whp and 304 wtq with bad valve float. I had also switched from the 4L60E and 10 bolt to the 4L85E and 9.5 SF rear axle by that point. I swapped the springs out for Pac 1218s and put Comp 787 retainers on it. Power increased to 257 whp and 310 wtq and the curve was much smoother. At that power level, I switched to E85 and still had some headroom injector wise. On E85 it went to 272 whp and 330 wtq. The stock spider fed my 383 up to 5,200 rpm before it ran out of fuel. At 5,200 my 383 is making ~470 hp at the crank, which is why I said the stock spider is easily capable of 400-450 hp.

I also do not understand why a performance shop could not do any work on a non-LS. Unless the wiring for the 02 sensor was removed, adding an 02 sensor past the collector and plugging it in, is not rocket science.

2-bar MAP sensor needs the correct custom operating system programmed into the computer, but both HP Tuners and EFI Live have that setup as an easy upgrade to do.

The wiring for the MAP and 02 sensors is the same as a LS.

Seems more or less they just did not want to mess with it. Like most shops that call themself tuning shops, probably copy paste basic LS tunes that are close into the PCM, adjust the power enrichment multiplier and call it good. They can turn that kind of tuning around in 1-2 hours and 3-4 dyno pulls. Then they give the vehicle back to the customer, the customer floors the vehicle pulling away and it sets them back in the seat more and they are happy for a couple days until they start noticing all the driveability flaws.
I think you hit the nail on the head about the just not wanting to mess with it…I just wasn’t expecting to have a negative experience dealing with the place cause everyone I talked to had nothing but great things to say about the place and the shop is pretty well known to be the go to place in the Dallas/FtW area… A good friend of mine took his ‘97 C1500 SWB there less than a month ago and he couldn’t be happier or feel better about the place and the job they did and th results…but he went with a mild built 5.3 LS swap in his truck… Which the guy working on my truck considers to be “the way to go” and it’s the “path of least resistance” in other words, easier for him to throw a preset tune on it, be done, and get paid…without really doing much of anything… Which as soon as he had the fuel issue as a reason to validate him saying he had done all he could do at that point…basically getting an easy payday without really doing anything…hell even the damn speedometer is still 20 mph off…

I’m considering taking the Powerdyne off it and putting a factory air box and air filter set up back on it until I get things going in the right direction and figure out what’s really going on with it… 207 and it’s not really drivable as it is, atleast not to take off down the highway in it..

The fuel pressure seems like a logical starting place I suppose…and go from there…I’m tempted to just put a new Walbro in the tank and a new filter on it just because I know the fuel pump hasn’t been changed since I bought the truck over 15 years ago and the filter is well past due to be changed as well…but I guess I should put a gauge on there first since I need to confirm that I’ve got the 60 psi either way…

As far as the O2 Sensors…he claimed he left them set and programmed into the tune so as soon as I got them on and wired in right they should be good to go…does that sound right to you??? Also do you have a copy of Lextech’s pinout sheet…I have one just want to try to confirm with someone that I’m wiring them in right..?

Thank You for all your input and efforts to help!
 

L31MaxExpress

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I would yank the Powerdyne off, especially until I got it sorted out.

20 mph off on the speedo? That is a basic change.

I am on the Fort Worth side of town myself a lot and really know this engine and the 0411/P59 PCM tuning on them. I really have a curiousity as to what was programmed into your PCM.

Ensure the truck is getting adequate fuel delivery, get the 02s functioning, and we could certainly do some street tuning on it. Personally I feel every performance engine should have a wideband 02 sensor on it with a gauge mounted in plain sight in the cab. I use an AEM setup myself. I hooked up the wideband to my HP Tuners interface to put wideband readings directly into the datalog to make tuning easier. I feel like your setup should easily make 300+ whp without the supercharger even on it which will easily match a mild 5.3L.

That being said with 02s unplugged the PCM will stay in open loop. When you hook them up properly you will get closed loop provided it is enabled in the tuning.

I do not have Lextechs spreadsheet in front of me, but I do have access to the 0411 wiring diagrams.
 

97SWBCHEVY

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I would yank the Powerdyne off, especially until I got it sorted out.

20 mph off on the speedo? That is a basic change.

I am on the Fort Worth side of town myself a lot and really know this engine and the 0411/P59 PCM tuning on them. I really have a curiousity as to what was programmed into your PCM.

Ensure the truck is getting adequate fuel delivery, get the 02s functioning, and we could certainly do some street tuning on it. Personally I feel every performance engine should have a wideband 02 sensor on it with a gauge mounted in plain sight in the cab. I use an AEM setup myself. I hooked up the wideband to my HP Tuners interface to put wideband readings directly into the datalog to make tuning easier. I feel like your setup should easily make 300+ whp without the supercharger even on it which will easily match a mild 5.3L.

That being said with 02s unplugged the PCM will stay in open loop. When you hook them up properly you will get closed loop provided it is enabled in the tuning.

I do not have Lextechs spreadsheet in front of me, but I do have access to the 0411 wiring diagrams.
well that’s cool, for some reason I thought you were from up north somewhere! Sorry bout that… Lol

Ordering 2-Wideband O2 Sensors w/pigtail for wiring them up, a bung to weld on the one header, new fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure gauge & setup…???

After I get my pinout sheet rounded up I’ll see if I can figure out which pin locations get which wires from the O2 Sensors…

Thanks again!
 

L31MaxExpress

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well that’s cool, for some reason I thought you were from up north somewhere! Sorry bout that… Lol

Ordering 2-Wideband O2 Sensors w/pigtail for wiring them up, a bung to weld on the one header, new fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure gauge & setup…???

After I get my pinout sheet rounded up I’ll see if I can figure out which pin locations get which wires from the O2 Sensors…

Thanks again!
Wideband sensors need a controller to operate them. The OEM front sensors are narrow bands.
 

jaybee

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I think it's pretty clear the shop specializes in LS engines, everyone else they extract a little cash from their wallets and send them down the road. I guess if they got it running well enough to drive it to and from the shop that's something, but if they can't show you an AFR they don't even know if it's rich or lean. What you describe sounds rich. Spark advance could be off as well.
 

Erik the Awful

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As far as the O2 Sensors…he claimed he left them set and programmed into the tune so as soon as I got them on and wired in right they should be good to go…does that sound right to you?
No. Not unless he magically guessed the right fuel map. Tuning is taking the data stream, and importantly, the air/fuel alpha, and developing a good fuel and ignition map from that. He's tuning in the dark, and that's why he should have turned you away.
 
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