To LT1 or Not To?

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Brother Al

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Hello All, Im still slowly progressing on my '92 Z71 Project, but am thinking about shifting gears on my engine plans ang going with a relatively stock LT1 w/ cast iron heads. (B-Body-Gen II SBC and No, Im Not Going LSX, so please dont post things about LS engines, I dont care).

I tried finding posts about this swap, but the search engine here seems to not like "LT1" as part of the query... It gives me a lot of completely unrelated posts.

Who here has done an LT1 swap?
What did you do for TC control?

Originally, I was going with a new GM ZZ4 shortblock, Vortec heads, and adding a 3rd Gen F-body TPI (Edelbrock vortec tpi intake)... all in the quest for a nice torque curve. (ZZ4 is now discontinued as well)
I Prefer to use readily available parts from the GM parts bin, whenever possible. GM had to engineer parts to last through at least their warranty period of 3-5 years... Aftermarket stuff is usually 90 days to a year or two at best. My experience is that much of the aftermarket stuff out there is reliable at being unreliable, fits...kinda-sorta-with help from a die grinder, and when the part fails, you are left stranded on the side of the road, hundreds of miles from home because no one has it in stock (special order), or ....its a long discontinued product that initially required you to fundamentally change the way GM designed it, so much so, that no stock parts can save you unless you can find everything last GM part you tossed into the trash heap.

Anyway, here's my reasoning.
#1.) TBI sucks... it does the job, but its pretty damn inefficient when compared to a properly-tuned Q-jet or direct injection systems... GM used it because it was very cheap to make... A hunk of machined cast aluminum, some vacuum ports, 2 injectors, a throttle A/F blade, and few sensors... really not complicated in any way.

#2.) The truck variant of the LO5 is doggy; 1992 LO5 C/K variant was rated at 210hp and 300ftlbs/tq. The TBI is what it is, swirl port heads just plain suck, and it lacks the roller valvetrain GM added to passenger car SBCs in 1987.

#3.) The LT1, was an amazing leap in performance. The '94-'95 B-Body LT1 was rated @ 260hp and 330 ftlbs/tq, plus the Caprice curb weight is very similar to a K1500 ext/shortbed. The B-Body LT1 iron heads flow exceptionally well & GM used them as the basis for the L31 Vortec design. The LT1 TPI plenum was a step up from the smaller '85-'92 TPI layout. Both develop healthy, broad, low-end torque curves, which is great for towing. Both engines were mated to the 4L60E (700R4E) so stock wiring can be retained and no fitment issues. Power steering will need to be looked at because the B-Body LT1 used a very undersized PS reservoir & pump for the car's size and weight, so it has failure issues when worked hard...

FYI:
The Optispark can be an expensive PITA... especially if you use aftermarket Opti's which have generic optical sensors. (Cant beat the original GM-Mitsubishi one)... the later design, "vented" Opti is pretty reliable, so long as you check the vent line for damage every so often...

For anyone wondering about power curves between LO5 & LT1:

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OutlawDrifter

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The LT1 will have a lot of challenges. The same chamber design was used in the Vortec heads. Why not buy a 4-bolt Vortec 350 replacement engine and put either a TPI intake with said Edelbrock Vortec base, or Stealth Ram, or find a GM Ram Jet intake on top, hell even the Edelbrock ProFlo has it's place. Put a RamJet/HT383/395 Cam in it and call it a day!
 

Brother Al

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Dare I ask what those challenges may be?

The whole point of going TPI was that its a fairly straightforward upgrade from TBI, with reliability, better mpg, and more torque on tap in the low end.

The LT1, has about 22% more total power than a TPI has to offer.

Ram Jets are out of the realm of real possibilities.. a RamJet/HT383/395 Cam would be fun, but not on a DD with occasional light towing duty.

A Vortec 350 replacement is an option...

I own a '95 B4C Caprice btw. (B4C = LT1) and I also drove a few 9C1's in the late 90's (was a part-time police officer). LT1 was reliable and took a lot of punishment. The LT1 heads are meaty castings, so they dont typically develop between ports cracks, unlike stock Vortecs, which often do, because of their thinner casting.
 

TylerZ281500

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honestly regardless of the intranet, iron lt1 heads are crap, aluminum ones arent much better but are impressive-er when modded, ive experienced many respectable LT1s but the Bbody ones in stock nature arent anything to wave a stick at. at this rate toss a vortec swap together, or do the even better thing and just mod your tbi for the time being, swap to TPI if you want, it has helped down low, but once again not a big improvement. IF you know what your doing build the three of these motors the exact same and they will be the exact same, IF and only IF your tuning and know what your doing.

Now dont get me wrong, i love LT1s, im not against this swap , Tinbender has done it, (not my favorite build) as well as Jayb!rd on the FSC forums back in the day, one of my favorite lt1 swaps.

your perception that the tpi is much further along in reliability and gas mileage is considerably wrong, this is a truck we are talking about, tune it proper and youd be more than suprised with what you have. go buy a smashed vortec truck and swap the harness and everything, run a manual tune and get a bowtie overdrive kit for your 700r4, be done with it.
 

Brother Al

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YIKES!

honestly regardless of the intranet, iron lt1 heads are crap, aluminum ones arent much better but are impressive-er when modded, ive experienced many respectable LT1s but the B-body ones in stock nature arent anything to wave a stick at.

Well, I guess I gotta clarify myself a bit better first. Im not looking to build a rocketship or offroad warrior with giant knobby tires. I simply am looking to improve on overall torque output, and use technology of that era to do it. I want a nice, low torque curve that comes on strong and holds steady for light towing duty, hauling, and commuting to/from work. My belief is that TPI induction is a quick, cheap, and effective way to get that.

Im also not looking for power out of my LO5...Its fate will be found on Craigslist sometime next year.

Before I really get into this, gotta say Torque is King, but if I wanted to just have stupid amounts of torque for tearing oak tree stumps outta the ground, I'd hunt down and build an Olds 455, Caddy 472 or Caddy 500, put in a TH400 and SAS, then have at it... or I'd just buy a new Duramax...

That said, Im kinda curious about your comparison of TBI to TPI, and the snub at the LT1 and Iron heads.. LT1 was just the evolution of the original TPI. I fail to see how a system utilizing 8 port injectors is similar, or even nearly as efficient, to the one using 2 injectors mounted above the throat of the intake...which is why people modified the marine vortec intake for use on their vehicles... the reverse cooling of the LT1 is also a nice advantage.

As said in my initial post, and the following post by "Outlaw Drifter", the L31 Vortec head was based entirely on the LT1 iron head, so Im not quite sure where you can say its not as good... GMs own nomenclature identified the L31 Vortec design as being the result of the Caprice LT1 iron head... the LT1/LT4 were also the hottest New engines on the block... More, the Aluminum LT1 head has a different design and flows much less CFM. A bunch of guys chucked their aluminum LT1 heads aside for cast iron LT1's because of this... kinda like folks tossing L98 aluminum heads in the heap for cast iron L31 Vortec heads. The LT1 iron head was designed a couple years after the aluminum one. That iron head was also specifically designed to move the heavy Caprice & Roadmaster sedans, very heavy wagons, and stupidly heavy Cadillac Fleetwood, as well as be rated for tow duty, and dominate the police and taxi fleet vehicle market... The limiting factor on the B-Body towing ratings were tied to vehicle ride height and frame design, not engine capability..

Both versions of TPI win the torque war inherently by design. As for the L98's Gen I TPI winning out over the LT1's Gen 2 TPI.... a relatively stock LT1 Impala SS, 9C1 Caprice (3:23:1), or B4C Caprice with 3:08's will easily keep and even beat a relatively stock L98 F-Body... hell, even the "Baby LT1" L99 4.3L V8 would give a L98 a run for the money. The original TPI design quickly runs out of breathing room before 100mph, which is why SLP ditched that system on the '91/'92 Firehawk... A stock SS or 9C1 LT1 can happily reach 130mph and will push past the 150mph mark. In a further comparison, using the LB9 TPI vs the LO3 TBI... the LO3 is much a lesser against the better fuel & induction technology of the TPI 305.

Also, I would never want a SBC with aluminum heads for a truck doing tow duty... just not something I would do personally... For a fast car or 2wd sport truck, sure thing, but aluminum and high heat for long durations typically dont play nice on a cast iron block.

In further defense of the LT1, for a car weighing-in at over 4500lbs, with driver and full police gear, I assure you, they are something to wave a stick at. They move out with authority for such a behemoth of a car. Typical 9C1s run in the low 15's... it took Ford nearly 10 years to compete with their P71, and even then it was not exactly a win for the Crown Vic. You cant do 15's in the 1/4, with a car that big and heavy, unless it has gobs of torque in low and wide band... There is a reason that many police departments held onto 9C1 Caprices long after GM killed them.

IF you know what your doing build the three of these motors the exact same and they will be the exact same, IF and only IF your tuning and know what your doing.

Not sure what the heck you mean here, but OK... lotta "IFs" up there.... For the most part, yes, I know what Im doing... but, its better to ask those who've travelled that road before, than to be an idiot and set off without asking.

And Yes, its an old 4x4 truck... Do I expect to have Prius-like mileage?
No way in fkn hell....
I also dont have a mountain of cash to build 3 motors... not sure what you mean by that... Im not racing my man, so I sure dont need extras. I maintain my machines and Im **** about it at times. Is She a Perfectly Dyno-Tuned machine? LMSO, hell no, but she's not running like a sick ***** on the crapper either. I dont own a beat to hell, bomber of a truck... its also not a show truck... its a tool and a machine, so I maintain it as such... it does what I need it to, when I want it to, & I take comfort in knowing it wont leave me stranded. Its my winter DD, and Summer work/tow duty truck. I've racked up some healthy mileage on it too.

As for mileage, I have a family, a mortgage, and lots of other things that require my money, so if I bump up my gas mileage by even 2mpg, thats a hell of a savings over time, especially if gasoline prices jump into the $3+ range again. When you are younger, its not as big a deal. I used to burn through tires and gas with my '72 Chevelle when I was younger... but I also didnt have all the financial responsibilities I have now 20-plus years later...

Beyond the Internet, Im quite familiar with 3rd and 4th Gen F-Body's... from a technological standpoint, TPI and TBI are miles apart...
 

michael hurd

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Brother Al. I will give you my 2 cents. I owned a B body Caprice, although it was a 1993 TBI. Torque was pretty decent, and it did move well from a dead stop with the gearing combination. For a heavy car, it was adequate.

A few things: the Caprice had an anemic rectangular air filter element that limited flow, IIRC, it had enough surface area to feed the engine to only around 3000 rpm before it became restrictive. The metal collar in the air filter housing around the injectors was even worse for restriction, but this was all a packaging issue with the engine height and hood line.

Mileage was decent, I was approaching 30 mpg imperial ( around 25 US mpg ) on the highway. In the city, it wasn't that great, but wasn't terrible either.

Having driven the LT1 cars, they made my TBI look sick... very sick. Well loved by the local police detachment.

I know you mentioned that you are against an LS engine. The LS engine family is where I would be looking to improve. Better efficiency, wider support for parts, both in OE and aftermarket.
 

TylerZ281500

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it seems your already convinced of what your under the impression of so nothing i say would be pertinent.

slp cars still had a modified TPI cross ram, or similar,

MY tbi truck pulled 16mpg on a lifted daily, undergeared........gearing and weight has your biggest effect

we run aluminum heads on our gas tow rig as well, no issues.

really depends on your capability.

you say you want torque, well thats where TBI accels if you choose to undrestand how to modify it. your comparing alot of apples to oranges here, tpi is ok on these trucks, did the swap a few times, did lt1 swaps, carb swaps , ls, 8.1 etc adn tpi vs tbi in a gmt400 is a worthless debate build for build. i wouldnt even go through the extra wiring to put an lt1 in a truck.

as far as the base design sure the iron heads were "modeled" towards vortecs, in no way are they though. stock for stock sure maybe kinda similar, LT1 aluminums ported, valved and polished, no contest better. i wouldnt evne bring up the poor excuse 4.3 lt engine, i had my hand in a few of those, after snapping cranks i wont touch them again with the lack of moderate hp/tq they produced.

once again comparing a car to a truck is apples to oranges, if you want to do it then do it but having done multiple of what your saying cannot be done, or isnt comparitive etc it is. TBI will do fine, leave it or vortec swap it or put in your lt1, put lt4 heads on it or whatever. as fara s vortec goes the spider injection was a crappy design based more so on the poppets and fuel distribution. its very reliable, not as torquey but not as bad a system as everyone thinks. the mpfi upgrade is nice, mpfi swapping is the same thing just requires a bit more aftermarket help. with your comment about how is 8 injectirs better than 2? its all about how you build it, we can go as fara s saying why isnt every racecar FI? its a stupid suggestion to think about but once again, apples to oranges, they can do the same but have different manners.
 

TylerZ281500

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Well, I guess I gotta clarify myself a bit better first. Im not looking to build a rocketship or offroad warrior with giant knobby tires. I simply am looking to improve on overall torque output, and use technology of that era to do it. I want a nice, low torque curve that comes on strong and holds steady for light towing duty, hauling, and commuting to/from work. My belief is that TPI induction is a quick, cheap, and effective way to get that.

^ your exact words. tech of that era was TBI, increase torque output screams TBI, low torque curve=TBI. overall your wanting to a build a tbi truck, seeming no clue what to do and want your b Body? your belief is your belief, i guess no one can change that but do some learning, build whats there, call it a day.
 
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