1995 Tbi 350. Runs for 30 seconds then dies. Feels rough.

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Noah1167

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Means NOTHING. Cheap replacement parts may be worse than the OEM parts you removed. And you can replace the sensor a hundred times and not fix the problem if the problem is a broken wire or corroded connection in the wire harness going back to the computer.

How about cap, rotor, plug wires, spark plugs, PCV valve? Have you verified the initial timing, electronic spark advance,
, EGR system, AIR system (if used.)

Have you looked at the magnet on the distributor mainshaft? Common for them to crack, generally where they're riveted.
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First Guess: NOT a scan tool, it's a consumer-grade "code reader".

"Code readers" are one step above useless.

You need a REAL scan tool, or a cable/dongle/software/laptop computer scan tool substitute. Note that I do NOT favor the scan tool substitute, I merely recognize that they're popular and dirt-cheap.



Clear them, see what comes back. Get concerned about the ones that return.

Download the Genuine GM service manual set for your vehicle from the links posted in the Sticky section of the Engine forum. Follow the diagnostic procedure for each code that returns.


TBI is simple and generally reliable. If you think TBI is complex, wait until you start dealing with newer vehicles.

Is the exhaust system REALLY quiet? Maybe the catalyst is plugged, and it takes 30 seconds to build up enough back-pressure to stall the engine.
How about cap, rotor, plug wires, spark plugs, PCV valve? Have you verified the initial timing, electronic spark advance:
I have replaced the entire ignition system. New plugs, new wires, new distributor. New ignition coil. new pcv. new egr. new egr solenoid. I had a tech at a local shop come out and do the timing. Might be something i need to double check.

For the egr system i do not have the canister set up. i have that venting to the engine bay.

For A real scan tool i did look around the website to find one and settled on a program i use with my laptop but have been having issues setting it up. Also have a chevy obd1 dongle for it. Not a computer wizard but i will try and get that up and running for better data.


Did download a service manual that was posted on the website. Will try and complete those diagnostic procedures and post my findings, thank you.


The truck has a pair on long tube headers installed on it. Going to a single 3 inch exhaust and one muffler. i used a walker muffler. The exhaust system has just been done. It all new except for the long tube headers.
 

Vettepilot

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Just a couple "off the wall" interjections here.

Doesn't this have an "upside down" sensor? Actually, I am referring to the crash engine turn off circuit. If it doesn't get oil pressure info, the vehicle will start, but then stop.

What is the fuel pressure doing through all this?? Vitally important to monitor. Will hot wiring the fuel pump make it keep running??

Lastly, and this is out there, but spark plug wires?? I once had spark plug wires generating RF interference make me chase my tail for weeks.

Vettepilot
 

wlkjr65

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Means NOTHING. Cheap replacement parts may be worse than the OEM parts you removed. And you can replace the sensor a hundred times and not fix the problem if the problem is a broken wire or corroded connection in the wire harness going back to the computer.

How about cap, rotor, plug wires, spark plugs, PCV valve? Have you verified the initial timing, electronic spark advance, charcoal canister/evap system, EGR system, AIR system (if used.)

Have you looked at the magnet on the distributor mainshaft? Common for them to crack, generally where they're riveted.
You must be registered for see images attach


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First Guess: NOT a scan tool, it's a consumer-grade "code reader".

"Code readers" are one step above useless.

You need a REAL scan tool, or a cable/dongle/software/laptop computer scan tool substitute. Note that I do NOT favor the scan tool substitute, I merely recognize that they're popular and dirt-cheap.



Clear them, see what comes back. Get concerned about the ones that return.

Download the Genuine GM service manual set for your vehicle from the links posted in the Sticky section of the Engine forum. Follow the diagnostic procedure for each code that returns.


TBI is simple and generally reliable. If you think TBI is complex, wait until you start dealing with newer vehicles.

Is the exhaust system REALLY quiet? Maybe the catalyst is plugged, and it takes 30 seconds to build up enough back-pressure to stall the engine.
Any chance you would be willing to tell me what type of scan tool you are using as I’m looking into getting one Thanks for the help
 

Schurkey

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Doesn't this have an "upside down" sensor? Actually, I am referring to the crash engine turn off circuit. If it doesn't get oil pressure info, the vehicle will start, but then stop.
Ford has used an "inertia switch", GM has nothing that actively turns-off the fuel pump in a collision. GM uses a passive system, the computer needs to see no RPM signal before it turns the fuel pump relay off, and there has to be a lack of oil pressure so the oil pressure bypass doesn't keep the fuel pump running. BOTH have to be de-activated before the pump stops.

Of course, if one system is broken, the other can run the fuel pump by itself. A failed oil pressure bypass system is totally invisible to the driver as long as the fuel pump relay circuit is working as designed. A failed fuel pump relay system can result in long cranking time (building oil pressure) before the oil pressure switch turns the pump on--but that's the only symptom of a failed relay circuit. Once the engine has oil pressure, the oil pressure switch will run the pump as if the relay circuit was working.

What is the fuel pressure doing through all this?? Vitally important to monitor. Will hot wiring the fuel pump make it keep running??
Interesting question. Worth some investigation.

Any chance you would be willing to tell me what type of scan tool you are using as I’m looking into getting one
I spent 20-ish years with a Snap-On MTG2500 using software good from '80 1/2 to 2005, purchased used from a seller on eBay. When that tool got damaged, I upgraded to a Snap-On Solus Pro, software good from 80 1/2 to 2007. Again, purchased used from a seller on eBay. This upgrade was VERY worthwhile in terms of the graphing power, larger screen, and convenience factors like the tool remembering the last dozen-plus vehicles I've worked on, so I don't have to re-enter the VIN numbers each time.

I continued to use the vehicle adapters and "Personality Keys" from my older '2500 with the Solus Pro; and acquired some additional ones with the newer tool. I got the Solus Pro before the bulk of Bideninflation hit; shipped to my door it cost ~$350. An equivalent tool is probably closer to $500 now, but there are occasional bargains on eBay or Craigslist, or perhaps a local pawnshop. You'll want a rechargeable battery in usable condition (nice, but not essential) along with a battery charger. User manuals on DVD. Various vehicle adapters, cables, and Personality Keys. And a bigass suitcase to carry it around in.

GM vehicles use three OBD1 connectors, GM1 is really popular, GM2 only for the earliest vehicles, and GM3 is almost never needed--ABS only as far as I can tell. OBD2 uses the universal OBD2 connector, but with various personality keys on some vehicles for some applications. K9 is common, K25 less-common, and I don't think I've ever used anything but those two on GM.

I would MUCH rather use a used-but-usable dedicated professional-grade scan tool than a cable/dongle/software/laptop/cellphone solution, or a "new" consumer-grade tool. Others disagree.
 

wlkjr65

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Ford has used an "inertia switch", GM has nothing that actively turns-off the fuel pump in a collision. GM uses a passive system, the computer needs to see no RPM signal before it turns the fuel pump relay off, and there has to be a lack of oil pressure so the oil pressure bypass doesn't keep the fuel pump running. BOTH have to be de-activated before the pump stops.

Of course, if one system is broken, the other can run the fuel pump by itself. A failed oil pressure bypass system is totally invisible to the driver as long as the fuel pump relay circuit is working as designed. A failed fuel pump relay system can result in long cranking time (building oil pressure) before the oil pressure switch turns the pump on--but that's the only symptom of a failed relay circuit. Once the engine has oil pressure, the oil pressure switch will run the pump as if the relay circuit was working.


Interesting question. Worth some investigation.


I spent 20-ish years with a Snap-On MTG2500 using software good from '80 1/2 to 2005, purchased used from a seller on eBay. When that tool got damaged, I upgraded to a Snap-On Solus Pro, software good from 80 1/2 to 2007. Again, purchased used from a seller on eBay. This upgrade was VERY worthwhile in terms of the graphing power, larger screen, and convenience factors like the tool remembering the last dozen-plus vehicles I've worked on, so I don't have to re-enter the VIN numbers each time.

I continued to use the vehicle adapters and "Personality Keys" from my older '2500 with the Solus Pro; and acquired some additional ones with the newer tool. I got the Solus Pro before the bulk of Bideninflation hit; shipped to my door it cost ~$350. An equivalent tool is probably closer to $500 now, but there are occasional bargains on eBay or Craigslist, or perhaps a local pawnshop. You'll want a rechargeable battery in usable condition (nice, but not essential) along with a battery charger. User manuals on DVD. Various vehicle adapters, cables, and Personality Keys. And a bigass suitcase to carry it around in.

GM vehicles use three OBD1 connectors, GM1 is really popular, GM2 only for the earliest vehicles, and GM3 is almost never needed--ABS only as far as I can tell. OBD2 uses the universal OBD2 connector, but with various personality keys on some vehicles for some applications. K9 is common, K25 less-common, and I don't think I've ever used anything but those two on GM.

I would MUCH rather use a used-but-usable dedicated professional-grade scan tool than a cable/dongle/software/laptop/cellphone solution, or a "new" consumer-grade tool. Others disagree.
Thank you for the reply and info
 

wlkjr65

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You wouldn’t have a link or a little more info on your scanner looking on eBay several different versions it appears and not many with any cables just want to get it correct don’t have a problem learning just don’t need to be schooled by someone on eBay Thanks again
 

Schurkey

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The Solus line-up.
Solus
Solus Pro
Solus Ultra
Solus Edge
Solus Legend

Any of these might have software that goes back to 80 1/2; but the newness depends on when the tool was sold, and whether or not it's been updated. I don't know the dates, but the support for Solus, Solus Pro has ended. Support has probably ended for Solus Ultra. So any of those you'd need to buy with software already installed that's new enough for the vehicles you work on, 'cause Snap-On does NOT upgrade them any more. No service, no repairs, no parts that aren't also used on the newer models.

Far as I know, Solus Edge is still supported, and I think the Solus Legend is the current model...but the newer the tool, the more expensive it's going to be.

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Vettepilot

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It's a bit of a pain to test fuel pressure on TBI, so it's often not done. But with any EFI, fuel pressure is critical to check when trouble shooting.

One note though. The fitting they sell to hook up a pressure gauge that swivels is very prone to leaking and that is super dangerous. I wanted to leave the fitting on mine permanently, so I tore it apart, removed the seals, and silver soldered it all together. Don't forget to "clock" it right first!!

Vettepilot
 

Noah1167

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Just a couple "off the wall" interjections here.

Doesn't this have an "upside down" sensor? Actually, I am referring to the crash engine turn off circuit. If it doesn't get oil pressure info, the vehicle will start, but then stop.

What is the fuel pressure doing through all this?? Vitally important to monitor. Will hot wiring the fuel pump make it keep running??

Lastly, and this is out there, but spark plug wires?? I once had spark plug wires generating RF interference make me chase my tail for weeks.

Vettepilot
I have read about all of these.
For oil pressure i wasn't sure but have heard about it being off the oil pressure sensor. So i replaced the old one and shot the wires to make sure that it was getting what the schematic was showing. Checked all good.

For the fuel pressure the truck has an aftermarket gauge that is installed on the tbi. I had someone start the truck while i just starred at it. It read 13psi for the entirety of its about half minute idle session. Thought that the gauge might just be wrong so i just bought a fuel pressure gauge and now am working for an adaptor to work.

For the spark plug wires and an RF interference. I placed the coil in a different location further away from all the major wiring harnesses and have routed the wires the best possible way to keep away from other wires. For testing i have no experience with that nor do i know how to test for it. ( In college currently for automotive, still learning. )
 

Noah1167

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Alright let me get to the point. Every sensor on the engine has been replaced. Fuel injectors replaced. Fuel pump. consistent 13psi from pump to TBI. Took every ground out and cleaned and replaced. Replaced wiring pigtails for any connector that looks rough/broken or had corrosion in pins. Now i have been messing with this truck to try and get it to run right. I have a little auto store OBD1 scanner these are the codes i have been getting.
15: Coolant temp sensor or circuit fault - signal voltage high.
22: Throttle POS - signal voltage is high.
34: MAP sensor - signal voltage is low during ignition on.
42: Electronic spark timing EST circuit - open or shorted.
67: Cruise control - switch circuit problems.

I have checked the ground in front of the engine that most these sensors use ( to my understanding ) and it checked all good.

If you can give me a step forward for troubleshooting it would be appreciated. TBI will be the death of me.
As mentioned earlier, at first glance, for the top 4 codes you either have 4 open wires in a
wounded harness, -or- for whatever reason the ECM and the engine do not share a common
ground plane, causing all 4 signals above to read open, even though the individual wires in the
harness are actually good?

If we can figure out a way to use one of the sensors to prove/disprove itself, and THEN see if that
same measurement is present at the ECM (with and without moving the multimeter's ground lead) then we
can prove/disprove the wiring harness theory for at least one signal...and give us a hint about the
other sensor errors?


****

So as not to make this too long to read, here is what I propose to do as a quick first pass to figure
out which way to go, using the Code 15 failure, where we can set a baseline using just an ohmmeter.

1) On a cold engine that is resting at ambient temperature, use an ohmmeter to measure the
resistance of the
Engine Coolant Temp sensor. Write it down, and compare it to the temperature/resistance
table on the 2nd attached page. Q: Does the resistance reading translate to within 5° of the actual
ambient temp? Let's assume Yes, and on to step #2.

2) Referencing the first attached page, go to the ECM pin/cavity C10 and see if you get the same reading?
NOTE: Make the first reading with the ohmmeter's ground lead in the same spot as when you first tested
the sensor in step #1. Same reading? Now move the ground lead to the ECM and repeat your measurement.

IF the reading is now open (old infinity, now 'OL') then we have a ground issue.

To recap, the 3 possibilities are:

1) Sensor fails check. Either internal open or shifted calibration. Replace sensor and retest. (Sensor as perpetrator.)
2) Sensor measurement passes check at sensor pins. But different measurement on ECM side of harness. (Sensor as victim.)
Find/Fix harness open, then retest. (DTC 15 = open. DTC 14 = short.)
3) Sensor and signal wire good. But after moving ground lead from engine to computer ground signal now out of range.
Fix ground between engine & ECM & retest.

****

Once we get this straightforward/linear/common sense sensor to communicate properly with the ECM, then this will at
least give us a solid spot from which to start troubleshooting the other sensors.

IMPORTANT NOTE: There are a some failures that we can can use DTC codes and a multimeter
to troubleshoot with. On the other hand, a DC multimeter is useless on something like the O2
sensors toggling in real time. When you start to hear that you need to see the 'live data' in order
to proceed, you really will need to do so.

But at this time you have so many codes kicking that I'm hoping that it's a single global error that we
can find, and it will fix most of what's on your plate.

One last thing. We recently troubleshot a no-start/barely-start condition back to an actual failed
ECT sensor. If you would like to see how that played out, go over here and read through this
thread: "Truck won't start, need suggestions"

To summarize, I picked the easiest sensor to measure/fix. My hope is that the underlying problem
identified by this fix will take care of the majority of the remaining codes. (Assuming that the other
new parts meet specification.)

Let us know what you discover.

Best of luck keeping another GMT400 on the road.

Cheers --
Thanks for the reply and i have done numerous measures to try and figure out the issue. I have removed the wiring harness and fixed any issues while also re pinning a ton of connectors that where broken. Hooked up the wiring harness and still and getting the same issues as before. I shot every wire to make sure i was getting good voltage and ground. I double checked the sensors off of manufacture specs and they all are completely fine. Double checked ground. All good. Removed the PCM and took a good look at it. Had an aftermarket chip in there. Removed it and replaced it with a factory chip. Truck does not have any go fast parts installed. Still the same issues proceed. I'm at a lost.
 
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