Nv3500-nv4500 swap

[GM Guy]

The 92-95 GM NV4500 was external slave cylinder and had a unique transmission to bellhousing bolt pattern that is not interchangeable with the 96+ GM, which shares the transmission to bellhousing bolt pattern with Dodge NV4500s.

IDK where this 98 split is coming from, nothing changed in 98 (for GM spec anyways, Dodge spec went to the new style top cover similar to the late 94+ GM top cover starting in 98) . 97 saw the reverse gear change to 5.04 with some other internal changes to reverse, and in 99 they synchronized reverse. Otherwise major changes were earlier.
I am only aware to two NV4500 codes in GMT400, MT8 and MW3. MT8 was the 92-94 with the 6.34 1st and reverse, and the MW3 is the 5.61 first and reverse (5.04 reverse in 97+) If this RT8 is some special spec, I would like to know more about it.


To use your 04 transmission, you should be able to order everything for a 96+ 350, including the clutch line. Keep in mind I dont know the 350 very well, so there may be a flywheel bolt pattern or depth issue that I am overlooking, but if the back of the crank is identical bolt pattern, and is in the same spot in reference to the flat rear face of the block, it should be fine.

Like said above, the actual bellhousing to engine bolt pattern is identical, GM did good by keeping that the same. (except for one bolt that can be left out)

I am assuming (not a good thing to do. ) that all GMT400 gassers utilized a single mass flywheel? I know in the 6.5Ls, the 92- early 95 6.5Ls have a dual mass flywheel, so the desired upgrade is to order for a late 95 single mass setup. When its new, nothing wrong with a DMF, but get some age on it, and its less reliable and more costly to fix.

So pay attention when ordering a clutch, IMO one wants to avoid DMF setups at all costs.

 

[Blackwater]

The 92-95 GM NV4500 was external slave cylinder and had a unique transmission to bellhousing bolt pattern that is not interchangeable with the 96+ GM, which shares the transmission to bellhousing bolt pattern with Dodge NV4500s.

IDK where this 98 split is coming from, nothing changed in 98 (for GM spec anyways, Dodge spec went to the new style top cover similar to the late 94+ GM top cover starting in 98) . 97 saw the reverse gear change to 5.04 with some other internal changes to reverse, and in 99 they synchronized reverse. Otherwise major changes were earlier.
I am only aware to two NV4500 codes in GMT400, MT8 and MW3. MT8 was the 92-94 with the 6.34 1st and reverse, and the MW3 is the 5.61 first and reverse (5.04 reverse in 97+) If this RT8 is some special spec, I would like to know more about it.


To use your 04 transmission, you should be able to order everything for a 96+ 350, including the clutch line. Keep in mind I dont know the 350 very well, so there may be a flywheel bolt pattern or depth issue that I am overlooking, but if the back of the crank is identical bolt pattern, and is in the same spot in reference to the flat rear face of the block, it should be fine.

Like said above, the actual bellhousing to engine bolt pattern is identical, GM did good by keeping that the same. (except for one bolt that can be left out)

I am assuming (not a good thing to do. [emoji4] ) that all GMT400 gassers utilized a single mass flywheel? I know in the 6.5Ls, the 92- early 95 6.5Ls have a dual mass flywheel, so the desired upgrade is to order for a late 95 single mass setup. When its new, nothing wrong with a DMF, but get some age on it, and its less reliable and more costly to fix.

So pay attention when ordering a clutch, IMO one wants to avoid DMF setups at all costs.

I researched this for 5 years before I made a mode. It also didn't help I was engineering in another country during that time. But what I found out when doing my NV3500 to NV4500 MW3 is the change from MT8 to MW3 was in Late 1997 on the 1998 models. When getting the clutch for the truck it didn't give me a different clutch until 1998. I made the mistake of using my clutch from the NV3500 thinking since it was the same as the MT8 version that it would be ok. But it worked till the disc stopped touching the flywheel. It was pre loading. I noticed some slack in the pedal like it wasn't returning to the fully engaged position. the pressure plate was longer than the 1998 one. I don't want him to do the same mistakes that I have done to ensure a smooth swap. The bell housing shape stayed the same throughout and bolt pattern really didn't change except the MW3 comes with an extra bolt on the top of the bell housing and it doesn't have a place for the external clutch. The gear ratios changed and 1st and reverse was given syncros in the MW3, other than that they are the same transmission. When bolting it up to the engine of choice, follow the torque specs of the year the engine was made when mating the transmission to the engine. for example: when I used my stock 1993 350 and mated the 2004 to it I used the torque specs to a 1993 3500 with 350 TBI. When I do my LQ4 swap I will use the engines year for torque specs, which is 2005.

What I learned from a guy that cryogenic makes special parts and upgrades for the NV4500 (dodge and GM) told me that I cant mix and match the dodge with the GM. The input shaft to the dodge is longer and larger in diameter. The dodge version also has a tendency for the 5th gear to fall off the shaft and fall to the bottom of the transmission. You can still use it in that condition but there wont be a 5th. GM does not have that problem but you cant put down the power on it like you can on the dodge due to the input shaft. I will share the link of the guy who gave me that info. These are also the first guys to do upgrades to these transmissions for the sled racing circuit. I asked him how much torque can it handle and he asked me if I'm sled racing. I told him I am not using the truck outside of its load ratings but might tow heaver trailers with it when I upgrade the suspension. He then told me to put the power to it and in the event I do break the input shaft he has a better one. The stock GM NV4500 has a input of 475Lbs-Ft. Im planning around 550+/- 25 Lbs-ft with my LQ4 402 cid stroker build. Its mostly a daily driver but tow occasionally.

https://www.midwesttrans.com/nv4500_manual_transmission.html

But to answer your question on the flywheel. I noticed very little difference in flywheels in the GMT400 platform in any year. Most of the differences is the Outside Diameter with most being .001 of an inch difference. It did change a little with the change to the LQ4 and the use of Duramax in 1999. The Detroit 6.2 and the turbo charged 6.5 are good engines. They are found in all military HMMWV variants have these engines and our CUCV pickup converted Brush Trucks on my fire department have these engines. Glow plugs for 24v systems are hard to find and replace when SOMEONE doesn't listen to me and ignore the note hanging in front of the instrument cluster "DO NOT use Either to start". Then the plugs swell to where I have to have a special tool to remove or in a extreme case remove the heads an break the glow plugs off to remove them. I would have to do some research on the compatibility of the Detroit to the NV4500.

I am currently out of country engineering again but I have my notes at home. I will be home in 51 days.

 

[GM Guy]

What is a 5.2 and a 5.6L Detroit? the NV4500 was factory installed behind 92-93 6.2Ls and 92-00 6.5Ls (up through 02 in the C3500HD) so no research needed.

As far as the swelled glows, www.leroydiesel.com has a nice glow plug puller. I have one, but thankfully have not had to use it.

Also, you can mix and match some dodge to GM, but only in 96+ GMs like I mentioned earlier. Also, all NV4500s have the 5th gear "problem" but only that rattly tractor engine in the Dodge will rattle the nut off easily. Its a engineering flaw, and they are all capable of it, but gassers and v-8 diesel rarely if ever have it happen. I do have a C3500HD with a 6.5L that lost 5th.

In your first paragraph I am still curious where you got that intel, because all NV4500s have a synchronized first gear, and nothing changed in 98, there was just a small change in 97 and then again in 99. The big change was 95 to 96.

I will have to go check the various rigs around, as I am pretty sure once they went to the 5.61 first and reverse with the newer top cover is when the RPO code changed from MT8 to MW3, and that would have been in 95, and since there is such a change from 95 to 96, that would make using the RPO code as a reference point sort of useless, the main focus needs to be on the year of the truck the transmission was removed from.

On the bellhousing, yes, they all have the "GM bellhousing pattern" where the bellhousing bolts to the back of the engine, as GM is awesome that way and its been the same since 55, but what I am trying to say is the 92-95 have a different 4 bolt pattern where the bellhousing mounts to the front of the transmission, and it is not interchangeable with the 96+, which has a wider spaced 4 bolt face, which happens to be the same as dodge NV4500s.

 

[Blackwater]

What is a 5.2 and a 5.6L Detroit? the NV4500 was factory installed behind 92-93 6.2Ls and 92-00 6.5Ls (up through 02 in the C3500HD) so no research needed.

As far as the swelled glows, www.leroydiesel.com has a nice glow plug puller. I have one, but thankfully have not had to use it.

Also, you can mix and match some dodge to GM, but only in 96+ GMs like I mentioned earlier. Also, all NV4500s have the 5th gear "problem" but only that rattly tractor engine in the Dodge will rattle the nut off easily. Its a engineering flaw, and they are all capable of it, but gassers and v-8 diesel rarely if ever have it happen. I do have a C3500HD with a 6.5L that lost 5th.

In your first paragraph I am still curious where you got that intel, because all NV4500s have a synchronized first gear, and nothing changed in 98, there was just a small change in 97 and then again in 99. The big change was 95 to 96.

I will have to go check the various rigs around, as I am pretty sure once they went to the 5.61 first and reverse with the newer top cover is when the RPO code changed from MT8 to MW3, and that would have been in 95, and since there is such a change from 95 to 96, that would make using the RPO code as a reference point sort of useless, the main focus needs to be on the year of the truck the transmission was removed from.

On the bellhousing, yes, they all have the "GM bellhousing pattern" where the bellhousing bolts to the back of the engine, as GM is awesome that way and its been the same since 55, but what I am trying to say is the 92-95 have a different 4 bolt pattern where the bellhousing mounts to the front of the transmission, and it is not interchangeable with the 96+, which has a wider spaced 4 bolt face, which happens to be the same as dodge NV4500s.

Have you mixed a dodge transmission to a GM engine? They don’t share the same input shaft. The splines don’t match up because the length of the shaft is longer in the dodge. Good luck with that. Also, you can try to order the internal slave cylinder for a 97-, it won’t happen. They all have external. Unless you modded it like mine. All GM NV transmissions are interchangeable. I have done it. Also, all bell housing patterns became a standard in 1958. Please do your research. Contact the the guy in my link above. He will set you straight. As far as differences of bell housings between the mt8 and mw3, I don’t have a MT8 to compare it with.

 

[Blackwater]

What is a 5.2 and a 5.6L Detroit? the NV4500 was factory installed behind 92-93 6.2Ls and 92-00 6.5Ls (up through 02 in the C3500HD) so no research needed.

As far as the swelled glows, www.leroydiesel.com has a nice glow plug puller. I have one, but thankfully have not had to use it.

Also, you can mix and match some dodge to GM, but only in 96+ GMs like I mentioned earlier. Also, all NV4500s have the 5th gear "problem" but only that rattly tractor engine in the Dodge will rattle the nut off easily. Its a engineering flaw, and they are all capable of it, but gassers and v-8 diesel rarely if ever have it happen. I do have a C3500HD with a 6.5L that lost 5th.

In your first paragraph I am still curious where you got that intel, because all NV4500s have a synchronized first gear, and nothing changed in 98, there was just a small change in 97 and then again in 99. The big change was 95 to 96.

I will have to go check the various rigs around, as I am pretty sure once they went to the 5.61 first and reverse with the newer top cover is when the RPO code changed from MT8 to MW3, and that would have been in 95, and since there is such a change from 95 to 96, that would make using the RPO code as a reference point sort of useless, the main focus needs to be on the year of the truck the transmission was removed from.

On the bellhousing, yes, they all have the "GM bellhousing pattern" where the bellhousing bolts to the back of the engine, as GM is awesome that way and its been the same since 55, but what I am trying to say is the 92-95 have a different 4 bolt pattern where the bellhousing mounts to the front of the transmission, and it is not interchangeable with the 96+, which has a wider spaced 4 bolt face, which happens to be the same as dodge NV4500s.

Typo on the Detroit’s, it is 6.2 NA and 6.5 turbo.

 

[GM Guy]

Have you mixed a dodge transmission to a GM engine? They don’t share the same input shaft. The splines don’t match up because the length of the shaft is longer in the dodge. Good luck with that. Also, you can try to order the internal slave cylinder for a 97-, it won’t happen. They all have external. Unless you modded it like mine. All GM NV transmissions are interchangeable. I have done it. Also, all bell housing patterns became a standard in 1958. Please do your research. Contact the the guy in my link above. He will set you straight. As far as differences of bell housings between the mt8 and mw3, I don’t have a MT8 to compare it with.

Did I ever say they shared the same input shaft? No I did not. What I said they shared was 1996 and up GM NV4500s and all Dodge NV4500s have the same bolt pattern where the transmission bolts to the bellhousing. 92-95 GM with the external slave have a unique transmission to bellhousing bolt pattern.


Again, I am talking about where the transmission bolts to the belhousing. No one is arguing that GM has anything other than the same bellhousing pattern since the 50s, that is an un-disputed fact, but that is where the bellhousing bolts to the engine. I am talking about the 4 bolt face where the bellhousing bolts to the transmission.

Also, concerning the slave cylinder, go look at any auto parts website like rockauto.com, and if you dont believe them, then go right to your friendly local GM dealer with VIN numbers off of FACTORY NV4500 equipped pickups, and you will find that I am indeed correct in the statement of 1992-1995 NV4500 is external slave cylinder with release fork, and 96-07 NV4500 is internal "hollow ram" style slave cylinder.

I just checked rock auto.com 2 minutes ago for a 97 K2500 with a 350, and all that is listed is internal slave cylinders. I suggest you do the same.




Long story short, the guys you linked above dont quite know what they are talking about. I think their info is a little more accurate if you apply it to Dodge NV4500s, but for GM NV4500s its way off.



Check out this transmission and gear shop out of Montana. They sell many individual parts, and have all the year breaks figured out. I nor anyone I know have ever been able to prove wrong anything they say:
http://www.quad4x4.com/catalog/category/nv4500_parts

This is a good FAQ from their old site (business was sold to the owner's daughter and SIL, and they re-named it, hence the different names) https://www.quad4x4.com/NV4500FAQ.htm
On this link there is the bolt pattern differences I am talking about.

 

[Blackwater]

I was at Oreillys when researching this. When getting parts for my 1993, the question is “What year is the part we are looking for”? When I did my NV3500 to NV4500 MW3 swap I used the following: 2004 NV4500, 1998 c/k3500 clutch and flywheel, 2004 slave cylinder and hose. 1993 master clutch cylinder.


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[GM Guy]

Now the one thing I never looked up is the NV3500, I dont know what they run for a slave setup.

the only one on the place is dad's 96 K1500 with the 350 Vortec, and IIRC its internal, but I honestly never paid attention.

 

[Blackwater]

Now the one thing I never looked up is the NV3500, I dont know what they run for a slave setup.

the only one on the place is dad's 96 K1500 with the 350 Vortec, and IIRC its internal, but I honestly never paid attention.

The NV3500 and NV4500 follow each other as far as the slave is concerned. The earlier models shared the same clutch and flywheel. It changed with the internal and no longer share.


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