Help picking an amplifier

[4x4incountryboy]

Hey, I have a 1990 regular cab pick up that I just bought speakers for. I have 4 jl audio c2 series 4 inch round speakers that I plan on running off of the head unit power and I decided to go against my better judgment and stuff 2 jl audio 6x9 c2-690tx speakers in the rear pillar. I was thinking about slightly amplifying the 6x9s since the all the speakers running off the head unit would be way too much. In the past, I have amplified 4 6x9s in a car using a 650w amp from kicker. I know not to "juice" them up too much so it blows the speakers. I want to do this for clarity and quality of sound. I already have the wire and connectors. I am shopping for the amp now. What would you guys recommend for a good quality amp, which brand, size, class, ect. And would you recommend a capacitor or would that be senseless? In the past I have only used them if running subs. Which leads me to my next question, would it be ok to run the 6x9s and possibly a small set of subs off of the same amp? If I am thinking correctly, it would only be a limitation of how much bass I can put to them due to the fact I have to set the amp according to the 6x9s not the subwoofers correct? I would like to stay away from 2 amps if possible.

 

[4x4incountryboy]

If I am thinking correctly I need a 4 channel amp?

 

[df2x4]

Hey, I have a 1990 regular cab pick up that I just bought speakers for. I have 4 jl audio c2 series 4 inch round speakers that I plan on running off of the head unit power and I decided to go against my better judgment and stuff 2 jl audio 6x9 c2-690tx speakers in the rear pillar. I was thinking about slightly amplifying the 6x9s since the all the speakers running off the head unit would be way too much. In the past, I have amplified 4 6x9s in a car using a 650w amp from kicker. I know not to "juice" them up too much so it blows the speakers. I want to do this for clarity and quality of sound. I already have the wire and connectors. I am shopping for the amp now. What would you guys recommend for a good quality amp, which brand, size, class, ect. And would you recommend a capacitor or would that be senseless? In the past I have only used them if running subs. Which leads me to my next question, would it be ok to run the 6x9s and possibly a small set of subs off of the same amp? If I am thinking correctly, it would only be a limitation of how much bass I can put to them due to the fact I have to set the amp according to the 6x9s not the subwoofers correct? I would like to stay away from 2 amps if possible.

Didn't we have this conversation a few months ago? I'm going to respond to this while doing my best to try and remain helpful and positive. I think miscommunications are what irritated me last time so I'll do my best to explain myself. (I'm admittedly not very good at that sometimes.)

First, in regards to pushing 650W to four 6X9s, no you did not run that. The amp might have been rated for 650W peak but those speakers never saw that much power if they survived for any length of time. RMS (continuous) power is the only wattage rating that matters on any of this equipment.

Amp recommendations... I'd stick with the more well known companies. For the best sound quality from the 6X9s (although amping these and having all these speakers behind your head is a bad, bad idea for soundstage IMO) you need to look for something roughly 50W per channel, 2-channel, Class AB. Just do some side by side shopping on Crutchfield and look for good frequency response (widest range), efficiency, and low THD. For the subs, the best sound quality will be from a class AB as well, but those are pretty rare these days. Plus they run very hot and draw a ton of amperage. What you most likely want is a class D. Decent sound quality but MUCH more efficient and cooler running. Same deal, look at the frequency respose (the lower it will play, the better) and THD (lower the better). What wattage you need for the sub amp will depend entirely on what subs you want to run.

Capacitors... Junk. Band-Aids for an overworked charging system that can actually make issues worse over time. If you really want to draw a ton of amperage (you won't with this setup) you're much better off just upgrading your alternator.

As far as combining 6X9s and subwoofers on one amplifier, that is a big negative. No go. The 6X9s will require a full-range signal, meaning that they need the entire range of sound instead of just the low end that subwoofers require. They'll also require a stereo signal, whereas your subs will want a mono signal. Pumping mids and highs through a subwoofer is bad for multiple reasons, and running two subs on a stereo signal will almost always cause them to cancel each other out a little no matter how much you play with the phase and other adjustments.

If I am thinking correctly I need a 4 channel amp?

There's really no feasible way I can think of to do what you want to do with only one amp unless you eliminate the subwoofer idea entirely. If you want subs, you really want a dedicated mono amp or a two channel that is bridgeable to mono at the very least.

Edited to throw some more info in, hope this is helpful.

 

[-sin-]

Couldn't he just run a 4ch amp, with 2 phantom channels for subs? I'm sure they still make something similar..

Waaaaaaaaaay back in the day I ran a Phase Linear PLA234 amp, powering two 3 1/2's, two 6x9's and two 10" Orion dvc subs

(showing my age here )

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[laidbackbigun]

he could run 6x9's and a sub off one amp as long as its 4 channel and has channel serpartions like the phoenix gold octane series. you have lpf, hpf, thru and its all selectable to the channel. also can run that amp in tri-mode. just a idea.

also you are right in saying a capacitor is a bandaid for a overworked charging system, but doing the big 3, and having a capacitor to smooth out the sometimes mosttimes irractic charing from the alt is a help. most people don't understand that a capacitor isn't there to fix a overworked charging system its there to help smooth the funeral progression.

 

[df2x4]

Couldn't he just run a 4ch amp, with 2 phantom channels for subs? I'm sure they still make something similar..

Waaaaaaaaaay back in the day I ran a Phase Linear PLA234 amp, powering two 3 1/2's, two 6x9's and two 10" Orion dvc subs

(showing my age here )

You must be registered for see images

Phase Linear made some neat stuff back in the day. What exactly do you mean by "phantom channels" though? I've been messing with this stuff for a long time and I've never heard that term. I'm going to guess that you ran the 6X9s and 3.5"s off of the same two channels at an 8 ohm per channel combined load (or maybe 4 ohm?) and then ran one sub off of each other channel? Like I said, technically this will work in that all speakers will produce sound, but your speakers will sound way out of whack and you still have the issue of directing the proper frequency ranges at the proper speakers. Plus like I mentioned, running subs in stereo almost always results in less than ideal output.

Cool seeing that pic, though! That era of PL stuff isn't too far behind the Lanzar stuff that I run these days! My amps are from the mid 90s.

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he could run 6x9's and a sub off one amp as long as its 4 channel and has channel serpartions like the phoenix gold octane series. you have lpf, hpf, thru and its all selectable to the channel. also can run that amp in tri-mode. just a idea.

also you are right in saying a capacitor is a bandaid for a overworked charging system, but doing the big 3, and having a capacitor to smooth out the sometimes mosttimes irractic charing from the alt is a help. most people don't understand that a capacitor isn't there to fix a overworked charging system its there to help smooth the funeral progression.

Phoenix Gold..... Blegh. No offense but I hate them almost as much as I hate Pyramid. I'm not doubting that there are a few specific amps out there that will do roughly what he wants to do, but I am willing to bet that most of them are from budget manufacturers that I wouldn't touch with a 10ft pole.

In regards to the capacitor "smoothing out" charging from the alternator, not really. The battery is in-line way before that and will take care of the voltage spikes from the alternator that you're referring to. A capacitor just stores a large amount of energy that it can release in a very short amount of time, draws even more power from the battery unnecessarily, and provides another handy point of failure for your charging system. Trust me, speaking from years of experience, if your charging system is overworked to a point where you're even considering installing a capacitor, then it's overworked to a point where that capacitor isn't going to make a bit of difference. Run a good alternator and a good battery and leave the gimmicky capacitors alone.

EDIT - 4x4incountryboy, I know we talked about this last time but I have to say it again... Are you still planning on using that headliner with the 4" speakers? I've been thinking about this build a lot and everything about it just screams "BAD IDEA" to me. The soundstage is going to be awful, it'll sound like you're sitting facing the opposite direction of the stage at a concert with all the sound coming from behind you.

 

[4x4incountryboy]

Phase Linear made some neat stuff back in the day. What exactly do you mean by "phantom channels" though? I've been messing with this stuff for a long time and I've never heard that term. I'm going to guess that you ran the 6X9s and 3.5"s off of the same two channels at an 8 ohm per channel combined load (or maybe 4 ohm?) and then ran one sub off of each other channel? Like I said, technically this will work in that all speakers will produce sound, but your speakers will sound way out of whack and you still have the issue of directing the proper frequency ranges at the proper speakers. Plus like I mentioned, running subs in stereo almost always results in less than ideal output.

Cool seeing that pic, though! That era of PL stuff isn't too far behind the Lanzar stuff that I run these days! My amps are from the mid 90s.

You must be registered for see images attach

Phoenix Gold..... Blegh. No offense but I hate them almost as much as I hate Pyramid. I'm not doubting that there are a few specific amps out there that will do roughly what he wants to do, but I am willing to bet that most of them are from budget manufacturers that I wouldn't touch with a 10ft pole.

In regards to the capacitor "smoothing out" charging from the alternator, not really. The battery is in-line way before that and will take care of the voltage spikes from the alternator that you're referring to. A capacitor just stores a large amount of energy that it can release in a very short amount of time, draws even more power from the battery unnecessarily, and provides another handy point of failure for your charging system. Trust me, speaking from years of experience, if your charging system is overworked to a point where you're even considering installing a capacitor, then it's overworked to a point where that capacitor isn't going to make a bit of difference. Run a good alternator and a good battery and leave the gimmicky capacitors alone.

EDIT - 4x4incountryboy, I know we talked about this last time but I have to say it again... Are you still planning on using that headliner with the 4" speakers? I've been thinking about this build a lot and everything about it just screams "BAD IDEA" to me. The soundstage is going to be awful, it'll sound like you're sitting facing the opposite direction of the stage at a concert with all the sound coming from behind you.

Yes I plan on using the speaker head liner but I am not putting in the 4x6 speakers in the rear pillar. I am doing away with them and tucking 6x9s in towards the bottom. I plan on eventually putting the 4 inch speakers to match in the dash as well but they are costly and aren't in a location that hinders installing the interior like the others Do. My only other though was the door panel but I have not seen any of the 88-94 style door panels with speakers inside them. I know we have talked about this prior but when we talked about this idea it was to amplify all speakers not just the 2 and maybe if at all a small sub which I doubt due to lack of room. Here's one thing I have a possible idea about seeing as I have never seen one in person, with the location of the headliner speakers being close to your ears, woulsnt there be an almost headphone affecf?

 

[4x4incountryboy]

And for the record, I know if using a ____ sized amp, it does not mean I am amplifying it by that amount however providing the power in which they can use.

 

[df2x4]

Here's one thing I have a possible idea about seeing as I have never seen one in person, with the location of the headliner speakers being close to your ears, woulsnt there be an almost headphone affecf?

Nah, I seriously doubt it. Just my opinion though as I've never actually heard a system that utilized one. Headphones work so well with smaller drivers because they're either in or on your ear, there's pressure involved.

What I would be considering if I were you... and you really want to use that headliner... would be to ditch the 6X9s in the rear idea and put some nice 6.5" components in an aftermarket set of kick panels. Something like this.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_044C10011/Q-Forms-Kick-Panel-Enclosures-Black.html?tp=61799

With four 4" drivers behind your head you really don't need anything in the rear pillars at all. Find a nice small two channel amp for the 6.5"s, and power the 4"s off of the head unit like you planned. If you decide you want to add a sub or two later on then you can add a dedicated mono amp. They make them small enough these days that I guarantee you could find something that would fit. Like I said last time we talked about this, I run three fairly large amps and two subs in a single cab. I'm sure you can find the space for two amps somewhere.

 

[-sin-]

Phase Linear made some neat stuff back in the day. What exactly do you mean by "phantom channels" though? I've been messing with this stuff for a long time and I've never heard that term. I'm going to guess that you ran the 6X9s and 3.5"s off of the same two channels at an 8 ohm per channel combined load (or maybe 4 ohm?) and then ran one sub off of each other channel? Like I said, technically this will work in that all speakers will produce sound, but your speakers will sound way out of whack and you still have the issue of directing the proper frequency ranges at the proper speakers. Plus like I mentioned, running subs in stereo almost always results in less than ideal output.

Cool seeing that pic, though! That era of PL stuff isn't too far behind the Lanzar stuff that I run these days! My amps are from the mid 90s.

Wow you got quite the inventory going on there!!!

Speaking of throw-backs, I still have and original Orion HCCA in storage somewhere!

Phantom Channels, honestly I don't remember and I have spent over an hour searching the net for a diagram!!! And btw, thanks for sending me down memory lane! Went through all my old pics to find a few images of my old amp set up!