1997 K2500 Front Camber Spec?

[slovcan]

Hi folks,

I'm a new guy here. I introduced myself over where introductions are done.

Yes, my first post apart from the intro is asking a question. Sorry 'bout that.

The background is years of a slight pull/drift to the right. In the past two years she's had a new right upper ball joint, new steering box and just now a new pitman arm. There was a wheel alignment after the ball joint. The result was the same steering as it always was (right pull), but the worn ball joint symptoms were fixed.

After the pitman arm replacement, the right pull was almost gone, but the steering wheel was now about 5-10 degrees off center to the right. Maybe the wheel was "centered" with worn steering components sometime in the past. Or not. After the new pitman arm there was too much toe-in (0.29 degree L, 0.22 degree R, 0.51 degree total). When did toe change from fractions of an inch to degrees???

After correcting the toe to 0.14L, 0.13R, 0.27 total and centering the steering wheel it is pulling to the right again just like it always did (or maybe a bit less). The centered wheel is again at 5 degrees or so left to maintain straight ahead driving even on flat road with no crown (center lane) which is a slight improvement from before.

I know now that the camber/caster has never been touched. The knockouts were still in place today.

The camber was 0.5L and 0.1R. The right is just out of spec - 0.2-1.2 (always was, I guess). The caster was 2.3L & 2.2R.

So, today I went back in and had them knock out the plugs from the right side front control arm chassis mount. There was no time to do the rear chassis mount. That resulted in being able to get the right side camber to 0.5 the same as the left. HOWEVER, that put the right caster at 0.6 (down from 2.2). Obviously the knockouts need to be removed from the rear chassis mount, too. Surely then FINALLY the alignment can be done correctly.

The question here is about the printed camber spec. It is 0.2-1.2 degrees. There is no negative sign in front of the spec. The rear camber is -0.5L and -0.1R. The pictogram for the front camber on the alignment printout shows both sides at 0.5 in green, BUT the actuality arrow definitely shows the camber as 0.5 POSITIVE. Now she is pulling harder to the right than before the adjustment when it was 0.1 on the right. This makes sense to me in that more POSITIVE camber on the right will make it pull harder to the right because of the crown of the road.

SURELY the correct spec for the front camber cannot be 0.2-1.2 degrees POSITIVE, can it? That has to be a typo. It must really be 0.2-1.2 NEGATIVE, mustn't it?

I am taking her back in to get the other knockout removed. Would the right move then be to get the camber set to -0.5 on both sides and the caster set to 2.3 on both sides?

I know that was a litany, but I really want to FINALLY get the alignment right with a centered steering wheel and no pulling.

Thanks,
Glenn

 

[Hipster]

I don't know what kind of clowns you're dealing with but you need to find another alignment shop. One knockout at a time, one ball joint, one steering component, one piece at a time, on and off the rack etc. When one component is wore out usually other pieces are not far behind.

The Sai and included angle numbers are important when trying to figure out problems like this but the caster, camber, and toe are not close enough to look at that yet.

I say this over and over on this site. You can have caster, camber , and toe numbers within spec, and still have bent components on the vehicle. An alignment is done with static settings so if there any other loose components such as a control arm bushings, tie rods, other ball joints, idler allowing things to move the alignment numbers will change under dynamic conditions.

It's really hard to determine crown in the road with a calibrated eyeball. You're not going to notice a couple degrees of crown and most roads are graded to one side or the other for water runoff and is going to take some steering input to the left or right to maintain a straight path. A loose box or rag joint can also contribute. So maybe just a little overzealous on that.

You could also be getting a pull from tire wear that has already occurred. Rotate the tires.

I think you have your head wrapped around with in spec also means both sides numbers need to be very close to each other.

Everything has been referred to in degrees for the last 30 some years I have been in the collision industry along with computerized alignment machines.

 

[slovcan]

Thanks Hipster. Yes, I do fully understand the contribution of other components, especially dynamically. In fact, I have been wondering about the control arm bushing, too, because they wear on every vehicle and are often overlooked.

I'm guilty of trying to keep the litany shorter. We do get safety inspections every 2 years here. Steering and suspension are among the things inspected. Yes, tolerance is in the eye of the mechanic doing the inspection. I know him and he does the work I ask and I do trust him. I have a mechanical background so do understand all this stuff even if I am behind the times.

When I bought the truck 40-50,000 kms ago, I had the dealer replace the intermediate steering shaft (they diagnosed that for the loose steering on my test drive).

The ball joint came about 6 months before the safety inspection that was due 2 years ago. At the time I asked about the steering box since steering had been getting progressively looser. There was a badly worn shaft bearing. I had that replaced at the same time as the ball joint.

A couple of months ago I had 4 new shocks and tires put on. There's only about 1000 kms on them.

This year I had the mechanic do a pre-inspection. I told him I wanted to replace anything that had any noticeable wear on it. I didn't want to be replacing stuff piecemeal every 6 months. The pitman arm was all he found. I am still suspicious about some bushings that must be worn some.

Then again, the truck has led a sheltered life. I'm the second owner. The first used it to pull his 5th wheel RV. I have only used it for specific home jobs like dump runs, carrying building supplies sometimes, about 10 loads of slate for a low wall and 4wd commuter duty in the rare snow of the Lower Mainland of BC. Vehicles from there don't even rust because the winters are so mild (90+% rain). It has had winter duty here on the east cost only since 2016.

All that said, the wear items have always shown less than "normal" wear, but there must be some. She even still has all the original exhaust including muffler.

We timed out on the one knockout yesterday. I know they both have to be done. I want the next (and last) trip to the alignment shop to get everything right. There was no charge for yesterday's alignment - with the knockout and alignment taking 2-1/2 hours.

I just can't get my head around the spec calling for positive camber. It certainly is positive, too. I can see it from standing 30 feet in front of the truck. When I mentioned it to the guy at the alignment shop before he said the equipment just tells him when the adjustment is in the green (in the middle of the green). He puts the vehicle VIN in the computer and it downloads the specs into the alignment computer. If I tell him to set the camber to 0 to -0.5 degrees he will.

One weird thing is the last alignment he did the VIN called up specs for my truck, but said "K1500/K2500 Pickup except Heavy Duty" Now mine is an 8600 GVW model with the 8-lug wheels. I don't think there was a heavier duty K2500 in 1997. Yesterday the VIN brought up "K2500 Heavy Duty/K3500" The front camber spec for the non-Heavy Duty is 0.2-1.2 degrees. The camber spec for the Heavy Duty is 0.0-1.0. No dash in either so it must be positive.

I'll try to attach pictures of both alignment sheets. The one from 10 days ago was right after changing the pitman arm so the Toe was way out, but the camber was as it always was. The one from yesterday was after doing the control arm front knockout which explains why the right front is so far out on the "before" part.

I really appreciate you taking the time for me, Hipster.

Cheers,
Glenn

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[Supercharged111]

Positive camber is assinine, I run .5-.7 negative in my trucks for even tire wear (but my roads and driving style may differ from yours). I believe camber spec is 0-1 degree positive and caster is 2-4 degrees positive, but don't quote me. I punch out all the knockouts, max out caster, set camber with the front bolts, find out which way it pulls due to cross caster, and then change caster on the one side while maintaining camber until the truck goes straight. Most alignment shops will happily send you out the door with .4 degrees cross camber/caster simply because the machine reads green. Alignments don't make money, they're just a necessary evil after they soak you for replacing worn front end components. There is a shop in town that I will give a chance as they do a lot of the roundy round crowd stuff, I suspect they're willing to align to customer specs and hopefully don't send you down the road with the aforementioned cross settings.

 

[CKVortec]

Your specs are correct and Hipster is correct.
on top of what he previously stated, your alignment specs can be perfect, even adjusted to slightly fight road crown and your tires can cause a pull even with no visible tire wear. A "radial pull" can be caused by one of the "radials" in the tire being larger than the others.
when you remove the knockouts on a GM truck don't do just one, don't do just one side, remove them all so that you have full adjustment of camber and caster on both sides.
what your "alignment guy" did by removing one knockout and adjusting your caster with such a big difference from left to right is that he gave you a guaranteed pull to the right.
A vehicle will normally pull to the side with the higher camber and/or lower caster, so to fight road crown my strategy (when I was the "alignment guy" was to favor the camber by about .2 degrees (higher on the left) and the caster by .2 to .5 (lower on the left).
if the vehicle still pulls try crossing the front tires (if they are directional they obviously can't stay like that).
Things to keep in mind:
#1 no alignment can be "locked in" with loose parts.
#2 no alignment will be correct if the tire pressures are not even.
#3 Caster isn't a wear angle, so you can adjust it to whatever you need to get the truck going straight.
#4 all bets are off if the frame or other parts are bent.
#5 save the long detailed description and just post the alignment printout.

 

[slovcan]

Positive camber is assinine, I run .5-.7 negative in my trucks for even tire wear (but my roads and driving style may differ from yours). I believe camber spec is 0-1 degree positive and caster is 2-4 degrees positive, but don't quote me. I punch out all the knockouts, max out caster, set camber with the front bolts, find out which way it pulls due to cross caster, and then change caster on the one side while maintaining camber until the truck goes straight. Most alignment shops will happily send you out the door with .4 degrees cross camber/caster simply because the machine reads green. Alignments don't make money, they're just a necessary evil after they soak you for replacing worn front end components. There is a shop in town that I will give a chance as they do a lot of the roundy round crowd stuff, I suspect they're willing to align to customer specs and hopefully don't send you down the road with the aforementioned cross settings.

Thank you SC111. So, in your experience I should ask for -0.5 camber and 3-4 caster? Set the camber with the front bolt, caster with the rear bolt. Question: if caster is 2.3 each side and it still drifts to the right more than the crown in the road would seem to dictate (or on the flat center of the road), should I increase the right side caster?

Cheers,
Glenn

 

[Supercharged111]

Thank you SC111. So, in your experience I should ask for -0.5 camber and 3-4 caster? Set the camber with the front bolt, caster with the rear bolt. Question: if caster is 2.3 each side and it still drifts to the right more than the crown in the road would seem to dictate (or on the flat center of the road), should I increase the right side caster?

Cheers,
Glenn

Desired alignment settings can be subjective. Positive caster helps the wheel return to center, gives road feel, but can also fight you if the road is rutted. I would recommend 0 for camber up to -.5. If you putt putt, have no merge lanes, and generally corner slowly you may find 0 to be a better spec. It takes time to know what camber works for you as the whole point is to split the middle and find a setting that provides even tire wear. Here where I live there are a lot of 55mph zones in town with lots of merge lanes. Back in home in upper MI it's possible 0 would work better for me, but I will NEVER run positive camber.

 

[slovcan]

Thanks SC111. Much appreciated.

Glenn

 

[Hipster]

A difference in SAI can create a pull even with caster, camber, and toe set correctly so tell them you want those numbers on the sheet. I also like to see turn radius and setback numbers on the sheet as well. The alignment guy is not giving you all the information.

 

[Supercharged111]

A difference in SAI can create a pull even with caster, camber, and toe set correctly so tell them you want those numbers on the sheet. I also like to see turn radius and setback numbers on the sheet as well. The alignment guy is not giving you all the information.

If camber is the same on both sides, the only thing that could cause one side to have more SAI than the other is bent components, correct? I had bent knuckles on my Camaro from some moderate contact and the car pulled badly. Once I replaced them, it tracked straight again. Perfect example.