L T headers, and heat soaked starter.

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

rebelyell

I'm Awesome
Joined
Feb 9, 2024
Messages
151
Reaction score
139
Location
CSA
PMGR service Tip:
Unlike old heavy 10MT starters, NEVER whack the case of starter in an effort to seat brushes onto commutator. That can & will result in cracking the cast-ceramic permanent magnets which line inside of case. Once cracked, their magnetic fields are altered/destroyed and starter is essentially junk. T-shirt !
 

kennythewelder

Officially Retired, B31-3 (6-G) certified welder.
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
6,522
Reaction score
9,171
Location
Louisiana
Oh, it's a near certainty it'll crank over easier w/ the PMGR starter, Even If The Cables Are Bad.
Because PMGR starter does Not have field coils; it requires considerably less current spin sbc up.
So don't let that fool you into thinking the cables Must be AOK. We cannot see thru the cable insulation and gage whether the conductor(s) are corroded; we can only see the conductor(s) at their terminals.
No I don't KNOW what good cables' resistance range is. Someone else might.
But, it's what's Inside that insulation that hides from us. Trust; but verify.

IIRC, SMP makes a good replacement cable; and SMP did make them for C3 (albeit for side-posts).
Today, I traced the battery cable back from the starter, to the battery. Yes, I understand that there is no way to look inside of the wires, rubber shielding to see exactly what shape it's in, but after 42 years of dealing with welding leads, most of the time, a bad cable, will be swollen where the bad spot is. Water gets in a small cut, or nick, and swells the cable, BC of the green oxidation that builds inside of the cable. If the cable it self has no swollen spots, chances are, it good inside of the rubber shielding. Before all of that thought, the ends are a good indicator of what shape the wire itself is in. If that wire looks good at the connectors, and the cable is still flexible, chances are, it is still in good condition. The next thing is, a bad cable, will be bad all of the time. It will overheat, and eventually fail. Next thing, when I looked at the starter, the rubber grommet, that the flat copper connector goes through, to inside of the starter, from the bendex, has cracks in it. Looking at that grommet, tells me that the starter could be an old starter. IMO, I think at this point, my best option is to go tomorrow and get a junk yard starter. Worse case, you are rite, and I have other issues, besides the starter. If the JY starter, fixes the issue, then good deal. When that starter quits, then I can get a better replacement for it, with the confidence that the rest of the system, is in good shape. A JY starter, is around $40. When I look at starter on line, they are all over the place on price, and dependability. The auto parts stores, are around $150, and up for a new starter, not a rebuild. This is the whole reason, I started this thread. I really would like to know, if anyone has swapped a starter from a 2000-2004 Silverado with a 4.3L. these starter are smaller than a 350 starter. My starter has the offset bolt pattern. So does the 4.3L starter. The JY where I'm going tomorrow is a very big place. Lot of vehicles to choose from. Probably 40 or 50 Acre's, IDK exactly. It's a big place, and everything is very organized. It's so big, that they even rent a golf cart to get around on, if you choose to rent one.
 

kennythewelder

Officially Retired, B31-3 (6-G) certified welder.
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
6,522
Reaction score
9,171
Location
Louisiana
Well, I guess I'm m not going to the JY tomorrow. I didn't realize that there is a different between a starter for an automatic transmission, and a manual transmission. I have a 4 speed manual in the Vette. All of the mini starters I have looked at, have some bad reviews and almost all of them, say the bendex sticks. I will figure it out tomorrow.
 

rebelyell

I'm Awesome
Joined
Feb 9, 2024
Messages
151
Reaction score
139
Location
CSA
Why limit your choices to a Smaller version ? Whatever difference (if any) May be only a slight difference in case length.
I've found it false economy to chase after a junkyard starter; when a new one is only about $25 or $30 more.

Regarding these type starters, I know of no difference between auto/manual versions; staggered is staggered and straight is straight.

These modern PMGR starters have an excellent service record (much better than old 10MT); otherwise dealerships would be plagued with recalls. The sole drawback is that Some of them have a composite ring gear in its planetary (all internal & in-line); Powdered metal replacement available.
 
Last edited:

kennythewelder

Officially Retired, B31-3 (6-G) certified welder.
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
6,522
Reaction score
9,171
Location
Louisiana
Why limit your choices to a Smaller version ? Whatever difference (if any) May be only a slight difference in case length.
I've found it false economy to chase after a junkyard starter; when a new one is only about $25 or $30 more.

Regarding these type starters, I know of no difference between auto/manual versions; staggered is staggered and straight is straight.

These modern PMGR starters have an excellent service record (much better than old 10MT); otherwise dealerships would be plagued with recalls. The sole drawback is that Some of them have a composite ring gear in its planetary (all internal & in-line); Powdered metal replacement available.
The manual starters have shorter bolts. About 1 inch shorter. The hole that the bolt goes into on the starter is not flush with the starter on both sides on a manual transmission starter. It is recessed on the side, where the bolt head is. IDK why just yet, but I'm going to figure it out today. As for price, it's $100 more for an auto parts starter, than it is for a junk yard starter. As for the smaller starter, that is a mater of clearance, more than anything. Also the newer 4.3L starter, is a gear reduction starter.
 

Schurkey

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
11,241
Reaction score
14,238
Location
The Seasonally Frozen Wastelands
Because PMGR starter does Not have field coils; it requires considerably less current spin sbc up.
True, and a good reason to switch to a PMGR starter.

No I don't KNOW what good cables' resistance range is. Someone else might.
But, it's what's Inside that insulation that hides from us. Trust; but verify.
RESISTANCE is near-impossible to tell when assessing heavy-gauge cables. A few wire strands out of the bundle will show low resistance using a typical ohmmeter; but the cable may be incapable of carrying the amperage the starter needs.

Therefore, instead of resistance-testing, you'd use voltage-drop testing while the heavy current draw is happening. Two tests required--one on the battery positive-to-starter cable, one on the ground side--starter to battery negative.

You must be registered for see images attach


The manual starters have shorter bolts. About 1 inch shorter. The hole that the bolt goes into on the starter is not flush with the starter on both sides on a manual transmission starter. It is recessed on the side, where the bolt head is.
I knew that SOME applications with manual transmissions needed a different 10MT (bigass stock) starter, due to clearance problems with the bellhousing. I thought the issue was that the aluminum nose-cones wouldn't clear the bellhousing, but the cast-iron starter nosecone would.

I'm kinda foggy on the shorter-bolts deal. Generally, the straight-across starter nosecones have one long and one short bolt...but you're not using a straight-across nosecone. You're using the diagonal-bolt-pattern nosecone.

Also the newer 4.3L starter, is a gear reduction starter.
Of course. As I said, GM has many variations on the PMGR starters; the PG260 was installed on heaps of vehicles from 4.3 V6 up to the 8.1 big-block. Same starter.

Corvettes got a totally different PMGR starter; but maybe that was in the LS-engine years.
 

kennythewelder

Officially Retired, B31-3 (6-G) certified welder.
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
6,522
Reaction score
9,171
Location
Louisiana
Ok, I got a starter from AutoZone, BC they were the only one, who had one in stock. The manual starter cone, or tip, is smaller, and made of steel, or cast iron, not aluminum. Also as I mentioned, the bolt holes are recessed, for shorter bolts.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20240404_122706988_HDR.jpg
    IMG_20240404_122706988_HDR.jpg
    148.3 KB · Views: 4
  • IMG_20240404_122642858.jpg
    IMG_20240404_122642858.jpg
    115.7 KB · Views: 4

Schurkey

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
11,241
Reaction score
14,238
Location
The Seasonally Frozen Wastelands
Cast iron, not steel. And I'm still not so sure about the bolt length.

Fairly sure I have that same starter nose-cone on my 'Camino. Not that I need it--there's a TH400 behind the engine, not a 4-speed--but it's what I had on the shelf at the time that actually worked. I don't remember needing special-length bolts to attach that starter, but it was decades ago.


You must be registered for see images attach

In your second photo, (cropped, above) the rearmost bolt hole is recessed (or recessed more) than the forward hole. The forward hole would need a longer bolt than the rearward hole. The forward hole is the hole you'd use. I can't tell about the hole on the other side of the housing.
 
Last edited:

kennythewelder

Officially Retired, B31-3 (6-G) certified welder.
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
6,522
Reaction score
9,171
Location
Louisiana
Cast iron, not steel. And I'm still not so sure about the bolt length.

Fairly sure I have that same starter nose-cone on my 'Camino. Not that I need it--there's a TH400 behind the engine, not a 4-speed--but it's what I had on the shelf at the time that actually worked. I don't remember needing special-length bolts to attach that starter, but it was decades ago.


You must be registered for see images attach

In your second photo, (cropped, above) the rearmost bolt hole is recessed (or recessed more) than the forward hole. The forward hole would need a longer bolt than the rearward hole. The forward hole is the hole you'd use. I can't tell about the hole on the other side of the housing.
Yeah, probably the different bolt pattern maybe for 153 tooth flywheel and other for the 168 tooth, IDK.
 

rebelyell

I'm Awesome
Joined
Feb 9, 2024
Messages
151
Reaction score
139
Location
CSA
Ok, I got a starter from AutoZone, BC they were the only one, who had one in stock. The manual starter cone, or tip, is smaller, and made of steel, or cast iron, not aluminum. Also as I mentioned, the bolt holes are recessed, for shorter bolts.
That is Not a modern starter. :rolleyes: That is an inefficient amp-hog. Apples and Oranges.
That is a heavy, old-fashioned 10MT aka SD300; probably remanufactured.
That does have field coils & pole shoes; that does Not have Permanent Magnets.
That does have a "straight drive" and does Not have a Gear Reduction.
That old 10MT weighs nearly twice what a modern PG260 style starter weighs.

* perhaps RTFM ---

AND
 
Top