Interesting set of symptoms...thoughts?

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Road Trip

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I may have transposed a digit. The code description is catalyst below efficacy threshold. They way its behaving leads me to think it's a symptom rather than a bad cat. Given the back fires and hard starts my thought was possibly rich condition or egr malfunction the o2 sensors (all4) are a year old. I mean the cat could be bad it's original I believe but would bad cat cause the other issues? Cats are expensive I just want to be sure

Thank you very much, I will dive into it and let you know .

I concur with your theory that as of now the P0430 is a symptom of the engine misbehavior upstream
rather than the cat being the root cause. However, in order to minimize the possibility your cat suffering permanent
damage, I would absolutely minimize driving your C1500 until the root cause of the engine misfiring can be found/fixed.

By the way, the design of the '96+ Vortec ignition system really pushed the limits of the insulating materials that the
distributor caps were made out of. This is one place where buying anything less than the best parts available on today's
market is proven false economy. (See attached photo for an idea of what to look for *anywhere* on the distributor cap.)
Also, the routing of the spark plug wires must be held to the OEM standard. And the spark plug wires should be upgraded
from the old carbon/graphite resistance wires to the newer RFI wire-wound offerings.

In English, the more you drive the misfiring engine, the greater the chances are that the overloaded cat will fail entirely instead
of just being deeply offended. When you discover the root cause of the engine running rough (EGR valve not closing 100%,
worn plugs, etc) please report back with what you discover. And hopefully with a smooth-running engine your P0430 will clear itself.

Happy hunting. Best of luck --
 

Attachments

  • Vortec cap center electrode spark leakage (arrows) 1999 5.7 350 vortec P0304 cylinder 4 misfir...jpg
    Vortec cap center electrode spark leakage (arrows) 1999 5.7 350 vortec P0304 cylinder 4 misfir...jpg
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jtdegreenia

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I concur with your theory that as of now the P0430 is a symptom of the engine misbehavior upstream
rather than the cat being the root cause. However, in order to minimize the possibility your cat suffering permanent
damage, I would absolutely minimize driving your C1500 until the root cause of the engine misfiring can be found/fixed.

By the way, the design of the '96+ Vortec ignition system really pushed the limits of the insulating materials that the
distributor caps were made out of. This is one place where buying anything less than the best parts available on today's
market is proven false economy. (See attached photo for an idea of what to look for *anywhere* on the distributor cap.)
Also, the routing of the spark plug wires must be held to the OEM standard. And the spark plug wires should be upgraded
from the old carbon/graphite resistance wires to the newer RFI wire-wound offerings.

In English, the more you drive the misfiring engine, the greater the chances are that the overloaded cat will fail entirely instead
of just being wounded. When you discover the root cause of the engine running rough (EGR valve not closing 100%, worn plugs,
etc) please report back with what you discover. And hopefully with a smooth-running engine your P0430 will clear itself.

Happy hunting. Best of luck --
Interesting the cap can fail in such a way. I see what you're getting at those pathways pass extremely close to one another in spots. A crossfire would be easy to happen under these caps. Good tips thank you, I'll definitely report back
 

jtdegreenia

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Reporting back. I found the bank 2 sensor 1 o2 sensor connector simply laying on the manifold flange where I'd connects to the head pipe melting away. Thankfully it was the sensor side of the plug and the truck side seems ok. Naturally I replaced it and my troubles so far have seem to gone away. I put about 75 miles on it today and about 10 starts. Seems fine.
 

Road Trip

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Reporting back. I found the bank 2 sensor 1 o2 sensor connector simply laying on the manifold flange where I'd connects to the head pipe melting away. Thankfully it was the sensor side of the plug and the truck side seems ok. Naturally I replaced it and my troubles so far have seem to gone away. I put about 75 miles on it today and about 10 starts. Seems fine.

Amazing how the computer didn't see the obvious out of range condition, and instead flies the P0430 instead.
And your story adds credence to the fact that a goofed up feedback loop can indeed result in driveability issues.

I would have expected a P0154 ("Insufficient Activity Bank 2, Sensor 1") DTC, or even one of the
stuck high or stuck low codes? Color this a swing and a miss for the computer. HAL has empathy for your VCM.
:0)

At any rate, sincere thanks for closing the loop with what you found, and it goes to show that there's nothing
like a careful visual inspection by a human to prove/disprove the quality of the code behind the computer's
interpretation of the data stream presented to it.

And all that I can add is that I'm glad that you checked this yourself instead of just reading the code and
using the wallet wrench at an opportunistic repair shop. I consider this yet another win against the financial
tyranny that the P0430 DTC represents to those of us, who for whatever reason, prefer to drive old.

Safe travels --
 

Attachments

  • P0154 Insufficent Activity Bank 2 Sensor 1 - 1998_GMT-98_CK-4_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLUME_4_of_4-1.jpg
    P0154 Insufficent Activity Bank 2 Sensor 1 - 1998_GMT-98_CK-4_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLUME_4_of_4-1.jpg
    127.5 KB · Views: 7
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jtdegreenia

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I agree it it weird, I'm curious to think maybe if there was an intermittent short or something of the like against the manifold that caused a wonky fuel ratio thus the cat code...things that make you go hmmmm.
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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With the O2 sensor disconnected, the ECU may have been sensing noise on the the input, particularly if that input has a high impedance (which is likely).

From ChatGPT: For most zirconia-type oxygen sensors, the impedance can be quite high, often in the range of several megaohms (MΩ). Specifically, it can range from around 1 MΩ to 10 MΩ or more, depending on the operating temperature and the specific design of the sensor.

So the ECU’s input would be a high impedance as well, and l believe we’ve found a probable cause.
 
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Erik the Awful

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It was recently pointed out to me that Chat GPT is more of a language tool than an accurate source. It was seriously dorking up the math equations I asked about. An O2 sensor does not work by impedence, rather it generates a voltage signal for the ECU.
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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An O2 sensor does not work by impedence, rather it generates a voltage signal for the ECU.

Yes, but it's a voltage source with an internal series resistance of ~1-10MΩ. The ECU's input would have a similar (or greater) input impedance.

Of course, the FSM shows the O2 sensor as a variable DC voltage. No internal series resistance is shown or suggested. But the FSM isn't supposed to be an engineering textbook, so the oversight isn't a bother.

You must be registered for see images attach




Yet here is the telltale statement from the FSM indicating the 02 sensor has a high (>10MΩ) internal series resistance:

You must be registered for see images attach
 
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Road Trip

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With the O2 sensor disconnected, the ECU may have been sensing noise on the the input, particularly if that input has a high impedance (which is likely).

From ChatGPT: For most zirconia-type oxygen sensors, the impedance can be quite high, often in the range of several megaohms (MΩ). Specifically, it can range from around 1 MΩ to 10 MΩ or more, depending on the operating temperature and the specific design of the sensor.

So the ECU’s input would be a high impedance as well, and l believe we’ve found a probable cause.

@1998_K1500_Sub, Good call!

You are definitely onto something. First off, elsewhere in the FSM there is a recommendation to the
tech to employ a multimeter with a 20 Megohm input resistance. Which would explain
the note in the
FSM about seeing .32v (vs the expected midpoint of .45v) if using the older/lower 10 Megohm resistance
multimeter.


****

It's an oversimplification, but to normal, well-adjusted folks I would describe the ECM/PCM/VCM O2
sensor circuitry that's monitoring the output of the O2 sensor as a balanced teeter/totter, with the
provided 0.45v bias as the center pivot point. And instead of the very low internal resistance of a
car battery, generating a difference voltage from the presence of oxygen on
only 1 side (~900mV) vs
both sides (~100mV) of the zirconia barrier is, by the inner workings at the very center of the
narrowband O2 sensor, a very high internal resistance voltage source.

Given this, the very design of the O2 sensor is such that in order for this very weak voltage source to be
able to 'push/pull' the monitoring circuit in the computer, then that circuit must match the impedance (actually varying
DC voltage at up to a rate of 6 Hz depending upon speed of overall feedback loop) of the sensor it's monitoring.
(See 1st attachment)

****

As for the computer seeing RFI on this high impedance circuit and getting dazed & confused by the
spurious signalling, your theory answers the questions I had last night. If I went back to the engineers
that coded the onboard diagnostics and asked why it generated a P0430 with the disconnected wire, they
would stop me right away and say that their tests are written with assumed input conditions, and the
situation of having a disconnected wire is an illegal physical condition in the circuit being monitored, and
therefore not meeting the input conditions they wrote their diags to work within.

In English, having a disconnected sensor with the wire in the harness turned it into an antenna on a
circuit with high impedance would certainly couple the RFI-rich engine bay chaos into the computer. And
as computer system diagnostic writers would explain to me, the results of this scenario would simply
be 'unpredictable'. (Back when I actually did this for a paycheck, I would escalate stuff like this up to
corporate, and much brighter bulbs than I would respond back with phrases like 'illegal condition' leading
to 'unpredictable outcomes'. (BTW, I learned so much from their architectural approach to how failures
would counterintuitively present on the customer site in the field.) Some of those guys were so sharp
that it was humbling to read their thought process. (!)

By the way, if you are curious about what was superimposed onto the disconnected O2 sensor wire
connected to the computer, you don't need a $$$$ pico scope to get an exact idea. Just grab a small
portable AM radio, tune it between stations, start the engine, hold the radio in the general area of
the O2 sensor, and by listening you will get a feel of what the computer was trying to make sense
of/develop a response to the strange closed-loop feed back?

NOTE: Most AM radios are directional receivers due to their reliance on ferrite rod antennas. (Watch
an old timer, and without even thinking they will orient their small transistor radio in order to get
the best reception.) If you have 7 good wires and 1 is failing the nighttime firefly test, grab an AM
radio and see if you can hear the difference between the good cylinders vs the 1 outlier. Using the
directional feature of the AM radio, a lot of times you can home in on the extraneous arc. (Normally
the external arcing is louder than what's going on inside the distributor and inside the
combustion chambers.)

...But I digress. This is already longer than I wanted it to be. But for awhile now I've had an interest
in interpreting the O2 sensor signalling as seen in stored graphs in order to glean valid broke/fix
info from them. But since this is too long, instead of discussing the last 3 attachments I'll simply
put them there and leave them as an exercise for the individual(s) still reading this. :0)

****

And the give & take in this thread is *exactly* why I decided to join this forum. More heat than light
is shed on subjects like this, and I enjoy learning as much as I can when it comes to troubleshooting
our GMT400 powerplants.

Cheers --
 

Attachments

  • classic teeter totter - Google Search.jpg
    classic teeter totter - Google Search.jpg
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  • AM radio with ferrite rod antenna - Google Search.jpg
    AM radio with ferrite rod antenna - Google Search.jpg
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  • Narrowband O2 voltage swing graph - Custom Air Fuel Gauge. OEM and Private Label AirFuel Gauge...jpg
    Narrowband O2 voltage swing graph - Custom Air Fuel Gauge. OEM and Private Label AirFuel Gauge...jpg
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  • GM narrowband O2 sensor output signal switching speed.jpg
    GM narrowband O2 sensor output signal switching speed.jpg
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  • GM narrowband oxygen sensor output signal - front & rear graph.jpg
    GM narrowband oxygen sensor output signal - front & rear graph.jpg
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