Interesting set of symptoms...thoughts?

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jtdegreenia

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Hey all, 98 c1500 5.7 ex cab short box 2wd
This is one of those "the other day it started" stories with a p0403, the mil lamp would come on, go out, come on, go out now it's on steady. During the time of light coming on and turning off (which lasted about a week) at times the truck would start hard, especially at a Luke warm temp, say run into harbor freight for 15 min. And once it did fire the mil lamp would not turn back on. Then drive a while and on it comes, and so the dance goes. It's important to note the ONLY TIME it would start hard is when it decides to turn the mil off, just for thar first start, starts fine once off, no change when on and just fine hot or cold. (In my mind making it unlikely a temp sensor...but maybe still) now the light is on always and have had zero starting issues. Been monitoring the codes p0403 is the only code since the beginning and is the only code now.

So the plot thickens...since the light has gone steady under certain acceleration conditions I get a back fire and a constant rough idle hot and cold. Maybe an egr valve?
 

Schurkey

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98 c1500 5.7

I appreciate that you listed the actual code. Please also add the code description so we don't have to look it up. Apparently, this is a "Exhaust Gas Recirculation Control Circuit" issue.

say run into harbor freight for 15 min.
Easy solution: Don't go into Hazzard Fraught any more.
:)

now the light is on always and have had zero starting issues. Been monitoring the codes p0403 is the only code since the beginning and is the only code now.

So the plot thickens...since the light has gone steady under certain acceleration conditions I get a back fire and a constant rough idle hot and cold. Maybe an egr valve?
Download the service manual set for your vehicle from the links in the Sticky thread section of the Engine forum.

Follow the diagnostic procedure for that code.
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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Follow the advice previously given, particularly the part about Harbor Fright.

I might be inclined to unplug the EGR valve at some time when the engine's running well, and then see if the problem abates. Unplugging it will set a code / light the MIL, but ignore that for the time being.

The ECU should ascertain the EGR is disconnected when it fails to see a pintle position feedback signal, so I believe there will be no drivability issues with it unplugged (e.g., pinging, hesitation / sags, surges).

But as noted, the FSM diags are a path to success.

When the light is "ON", my guess is the ECU's not trying to operate the EGR on account of the noted error, and coincidentally (or not) the EGR valve is sitting closed... so it drives just fine.

(edit) I searched through my .pdf of the 1998 FSM and I can't find a P0403... :think:

You must be registered for see images attach
 
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Road Trip

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Hey all, 98 c1500 5.7 ex cab short box 2wd
This is one of those "the other day it started" stories with a p0403, the mil lamp would come on, go out, come on, go out now it's on steady. During the time of light coming on and turning off (which lasted about a week) at times the truck would start hard, especially at a Luke warm temp, say run into harbor freight for 15 min.Been monitoring the codes p0403 is the only code since the beginning and is the only code now.

Hello jtdegreenia,

Could you please recheck that "P0403" code? I just scanned the entire '98 FSM,
and I (also) only found the following 3 DTC codes for the EGR valve. (See attached.)

Is it possible that you accidentally transposed a different number? (ex: P0304)
Is the computer the original one for the vehicle, or has a different one been
swapped in by the PO?
Which code reader did you use? Does it have a history of being accurate/reliable?

Don't misinterpret the above. I am not questioning *you*, I'm just trying to figure
out why your '98 is reporting a Code not listed in the FSM? (And yes, I know that
no manual is 100% accurate.)

Please recheck your data and let us know what you've got.

EDIT: I just added a 2nd attachment showing all the EGR tests that must pass in
order for that I/M monitor status to be flagged good for emissions testing. (Including
an additional manufacturer specific P1404.)

Thanks --
 

Attachments

  • '98 DTC listings for EGR system (highlighted) --1998_GMT-98_CK-3_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLUME_3_of_4.jpg
    '98 DTC listings for EGR system (highlighted) --1998_GMT-98_CK-3_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLUME_3_of_4.jpg
    183.7 KB · Views: 13
  • '98 list of tests that must pass for IM monitor status -  1998_GMT-98_CK-4_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLU...jpg
    '98 list of tests that must pass for IM monitor status - 1998_GMT-98_CK-4_SERVICE_MANUAL-VOLU...jpg
    248.7 KB · Views: 11
Last edited:

jtdegreenia

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Hi. Thanks for your response I may have transposed a number but the description is catalyst below efficiency threshold bank 2.
It's the only code and has been the whole time. First intermittent and now steady.

What I'm hoping to achieve is the answer to this question...is the cat bad or is it a symptom of something else?

Example- I know an exhaust leak will throw this code, lean/rich conditions and so on.

Given how it's behaving I was hoping for some input before dropping big cash on the headpipe/catalyst assembly.

It is a new computer. My code retriever is just that no special tech ii or anything and no worries no offense taken.

Thanks for the reply
 

jtdegreenia

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I appreciate that you listed the actual code. Please also add the code description so we don't have to look it up. Apparently, this is a "Exhaust Gas Recirculation Control Circuit" issue.


Easy solution: Don't go into Hazzard Fraught any more.
:)


Download the service manual set for your vehicle from the links in the Sticky thread section of the Engine forum.

Follow the diagnostic procedure for that code.
That's good advice about harbor frieght
 

Road Trip

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Hi. Thanks for your response I may have transposed a number but the description is catalyst below efficiency threshold bank 2.

Bingo! Thanks to your description vs the available DTC codes it looks like your '98 VCM is kicking a P0430.

Note: For comparison, on a GMT400 a weak left cat would cause a P0420. (Bank 1) Your code is for the right cat. (Bank 2)

1) The short answer is that the computer is monitoring/comparing the activity of the forward O2 sensor ahead of the right cat versus
the activity shown by the O2 sensor behind the cat, and essentially once the rear sensor's behavior starts to mimic the front sensor the
VCM illuminates the SES light and stores this code. (These 2 sensors on a weak/bad cat will start to act in concert as if they are installed
on a straight piece of pipe.)

2) The conventional rule of thumb is that the car owner has to replace the cat in order to clear the code. While it's true that cat
replacement will clear the code, IF there is still an underlying issue upstream of the new cat that led to the overheat/failure of the
original cat, then the new Federal $$$ (or even stricter Cali emissions $$$$) cat may prematurely fail and need to be replaced again. (!)
In order to help you prevent this costly repeat scenario from happening to you, I'd like to expand on this a bit.

In a river, pollution flows downstream.
On our 5.7 engines, cylinders #1,#3,#5,#7 flow into the downstream left (Bank 1) cat.
And cylinders #2,#4,#6,#8 flow into the downstream right (Bank 2) cat.

IF both left and right cats failed, then either you have a healthy motor and the cats just aged out/reached the end of their service life
around the same time. Or, it could have been a combo of a global error in the VCM<>engine closed loop that caused the premature
poisoning of both good cats.

I bring this up because you have a DTC-free left cat, but at the same time you also have a P0430 right cat.
This would lead me to carefully compare & contrast the overall engine health of Bank 1 vs the overall health
of Bank 2. The first step would be to pull all 8 plugs and see if you have 1 or more bad plugs in Bank 2.
(See attached for arranging the plugs for a group photo for the easiest most conclusive remote analysis.)

For what it's worth, a single misfiring cylinder in one bank can make that bank's cat runner hotter/overheat/weaken
sooner than if all the cylinders in a bank are firing properly.)

In English, if the plugs/wires/cap/rotor have been in service for any length of time, I'd seriously consider first performing
a full tune up. Once the engine is running as clean as possible, if it was mine I would try some Cataclean on it, following
the directions carefully. Since this DTC was flashing recently before finally coming on solid, even though the cat is
failing the efficiency test, with a clean engine and the catalyst cleaner, you may able to get the cat to come back just to
the good side of the failure criteria. (If a new cat = 10, and an inop one =1, the test failure may indicate that you just
went below 3.)

If the tuneup & Cataclean can get the cat back up to a 4-5 on this scale, then the light goes out, and you can continue
to run your original, revived cat indefinitely. (Usually this is in a high mileage DD where passing the next yearly state safety
inspection is contingent on several other nearly worn-out subsystems. So the mindset becomes why just swap in a $$$ cat
on a car that might encounter a real showstopper elsewhere within the next 12 months? Maybe I can bring the existing cat
back to life for a little while longer?

And even if you are too late to revive this cat, then with the fresh tune up the new cat will have the easiest possible life.
And if you discover an engine problem (bank 2 head gasket, dribbly injector, bad spark plug wire, etc) during the
tune up effort, then at least you know to fix your engine before replacing the right cat...to prevent the new one from
failing prematurely. (!)

3) Taking the P0430 from the shade-tree mechanic/common sense level to the pro mechanic/emissions-lab perspective,
here's a good article to noodle on: (P0420 P0430 vehicleservicepros article)

****

So there you have it. To recap:

Conventional wisdom is DTC occurs, immediately find a part and swap part out.

Cleaning up the engine as much as possible with a fresh tuneup first is drawn from personal experience.
Have helped myself and others by cleaning up the way an engine runs & making life easier on the cat...to
the point where it recovers enough to get back on the good side of the P0420/0430 testing pass/fail criteria.

Sometimes the (previously overloaded) cat comes back on it's own. But once in awhile we'll try the
cataclean stuff and this seems to help in the tougher cases. (Of course, if the cat rattles when you
shake it...it's been too hot, the honeycomb has melted, and you are definitely too late to do anything else
but replace the wounded warrior.)

The last part is a pointer to the theory & graphs that I like to share on the back of a napkin at cocktail
parties. The ladies swoon and the mechanics weep with joy when I do this. :0)

****

That's all I got for now. If you could report back with what you found and how you finally
fixed it, then this would be a huge assist for others that are researching similar issues.

Best of luck. And welcome to the GMT400 forum!

Cheers --
 

Attachments

  • Cat Cutaway -- Who 'killed the cat' Examining the root cause of P0420P0430 failures  Vehicle S...jpg
    Cat Cutaway -- Who 'killed the cat' Examining the root cause of P0420P0430 failures Vehicle S...jpg
    132.8 KB · Views: 31
  • 8 old champion spark plugs as found from previous owner.JPG
    8 old champion spark plugs as found from previous owner.JPG
    612 KB · Views: 22
Last edited:

PM18S4

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Can you confirm the code was P0403 and not P0430?

P0430 is the all-to-common "Catalytic System Low Efficiency Bank 2".
(I can't recall if Bank 2 is the cat for the driver or passenger side exhaust.)

If it P0430 could be a few other things.
‣ Bad catalytic converter (obviously)
‣ Bad downstream (Sensor 2) Hot O₂ Sensor (HO2S)
‣ Bad wiring to the HO2S

An R&R on the cat can be a real PITA as the Y-Pipe studs are often seized-up at the exhaust manifolds and are awkward to get at.
An R&R on the HO2S (ACDelco PN: AFS106) is likewise a PITA as the threads of the sensor are notorious for being damn near impossible to remove sometimes.
(I had to resort to a MAPP torch and a 3 ft breaker with a crows-foot to get it off, also make sure to chase the internal threads before installing a new HO2S)

If possible, can your OBD2 scanner read real-time output from Bank 2 Sensor 2?
If so, can you report back on what it reads under the following conditions? it may help to determine if the issue is with the cat, the sensor, or the wiring.
‣ Cold, Idle
‣ Cold, Under Load
‣ At-Temp, Idle
‣ At-Temp, Under Load

If it is the wiring that is bad, these are the locations it could be at:
‣ The connection of the HO2S pigtail and the Oxygen sensor harness
‣ Somewhere in the oxygen sensor harness
‣ The connection (C107) from the Oxygen senor harness to the engine harness
‣ Somewhere in the engine harness
‣ The connection (C1) of the engine harness to the VCM.

It shouldn't be the ground or 12V power connections of the harness, as the lines are spliced together in the oxygen sensor harness and you would have codes across other sensors.
A frayed or broken conductor inside the harnesses would be difficult to diagnose, but the following diagram may help. The problem would only be in the highlighted conductors.
You must be registered for see images attach

S148 is "approx. 19 cm (7.5 in) into oxygen sensor harness"
S149 is "approx. 7 cm (2.5 in) from RH bank oxygen sensor breakout, toward LH bank oxygen sensor"
 

jtdegreenia

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Follow the advice previously given, particularly the part about Harbor Fright.

I might be inclined to unplug the EGR valve at some time when the engine's running well, and then see if the problem abates. Unplugging it will set a code / light the MIL, but ignore that for the time being.

The ECU should ascertain the EGR is disconnected when it fails to see a pintle position feedback signal, so I believe there will be no drivability issues with it unplugged (e.g., pinging, hesitation / sags, surges).

But as noted, the FSM diags are a path to success.

When the light is "ON", my guess is the ECU's not trying to operate the EGR on account of the noted error, and coincidentally (or not) the EGR valve is sitting closed... so it drives just fine.

(edit) I searched through my .pdf of the 1998 FSM and I can't find a P0403... :think:

You must be registered for see images attach
I may have transposed a digit. The code description is catalyst below efficacy threshold. They way its behaving leads me to think it's a symptom rather than a bad cat. Given the back fires and hard starts my thought was possibly rich condition or egr malfunction the o2 sensors (all4) are a year old. I mean the cat could be bad it's original I believe but would bad cat cause the other issues? Cats are expensive I just want to be sure
Bingo! Thanks to your description vs the available DTC codes it looks like your '98 VCM is kicking a P0430.

Note: For comparison, on a GMT400 a weak left cat would cause a P0420. (Bank 1) Your code is for the right cat. (Bank 2)

1) The short answer is that the computer is monitoring/comparing the activity of the forward O2 sensor ahead of the right cat versus
the activity shown by the O2 sensor behind the cat, and essentially once the rear sensor's behavior starts to mimic the front sensor the
VCM illuminates the SES light and stores this code. (These 2 sensors on a weak/bad cat will start to act like they are installed on a
straight piece of pipe.)

2) The rule of thumb is that the car owner has to replace the cat in order to clear the code. While it's true that cat replacement will
clear the code, IF there is still an underlying issue upstream of the new cat that led to the overheat/failure of the original cat, then
the new Federal $$$ (or even stricter Cali emissions $$$$) cat may prematurely fail and need to be replaced again. (!) In order to
help you prevent this expensive repeat scenario from happening to you, I'd like to expand on this a bit.

In a river, pollution flows downstream.
On our 5.7 engines, cylinders #1,#3,#5,#7 flow into the downstream left (Bank 1) cat.
And cylinders #2,#4,#6,#8 flow into the downstream right (Bank 2) cat.

IF both left and right cats failed, then either you have a healthy motor and the cats just aged out/reached the end of their service life
around the same time. Or, it could have been a combo of a global error in the VCM<> engine closed loop that caused the premature
poisoning of both good cats.

I bring this up because you have a DTC-free left cat, but at the same time you also have a P0430 right cat.
This would lead me to carefully compare & contrast the overall engine health of Bank 1 vs the overall health
of Bank 2. The first step would be to pull all 8 plugs and see if you have 1 or more bad plugs in Bank 2.
(See attached for arranging the plugs for a group photo for the easiest most conclusive remote analysis.)

For what it's worth, a single misfiring cylinder in one bank can make that bank's cat runner hotter/overheat/weaken
sooner than if all the cylinders in a bank are firing properly.)

In English, if the plugs/wires/cap/rotor have been in service for any length of time, I'd seriously consider first performing
a full tune up. Once the engine is running as clean as possible, if it was mine I would try some Cataclean on it, following
the directions carefully. Since this DTC was flashing recently before finally coming on solid, even though the cat is
failing the efficiency test, with a clean engine and the catalyst cleaner, you may able to get the cat to come back just to
the good side of the failure criteria. (If a new cat = 10, and an inop one =1, the test failure may indicate that you just
went below 3.)

If the tuneup & Cataclean can get the cat back up to a 4-5 on this scale, then the light goes out, and you can continue
to run your original, revived cat indefinitely. (Usually this is in a high mileage DD where passing the next yearly state safety
inspection is contingent on several other nearly worn-out subsystems. So the mindset becomes why just swap in a $$$ cat
on a car that might encounter a real showstopper elsewhere within the next 12 months? Maybe I can bring the existing cat
back to life for a little while longer?

And even if you are too late to revive this cat, then with the fresh tune up the new cat will have the easiest possible life.
And if you discover an engine problem (bank 2 head gasket, dribbly injector, bad spark plug wire, etc) during the
tune up effort, then at least you know to fix your engine before replacing the right cat...to prevent the new one from
failing prematurely. (!)

3) Taking the P0430 from the shade-tree mechanic/common sense level to the pro mechanic/emissions-lab perspective,
here's a good article to noodle on: (P0420 P0430 vehicleservicepros article)

****

So there you have it. To recap:

Conventional wisdom is DTC occurs, immediately find a part and swap part out.

Cleaning up the engine as much as possible with a fresh tuneup first is drawn from personal experience.
Have helped myself and others by cleaning up the way an engine runs & making life easier on the cat...to
the point where it recovers enough to get back on the good side of the P0420/0430 testing pass/fail criteria.

Sometimes the (previously overloaded) cat comes back on it's own. But once in awhile we'll try the
cataclean stuff and this seems to help in the tougher cases. (Of course, if the cat rattles when you
shake it...it's been too hot, the honeycomb has melted, and you are definitely too late to do anything else
but replace the wounded warrior.)

The last part is a pointer to the theory & graphs that I like to share on the back of a napkin at cocktail
parties. The ladies swoon and the mechanics weep with joy when I do this. :0)

****

That's all I got for now. If you could report back with what you found and how you finally
fixed it, then this would be a huge assist for others that are researching similar issues.

Best of luck. And welcome to the GMT400 forum!

Cheers --
Thank you very much, I will dive into it and let you know .
 

jtdegreenia

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Peterborough
Can you confirm the code was P0403 and not P0430?

P0430 is the all-to-common "Catalytic System Low Efficiency Bank 2".
(I can't recall if Bank 2 is the cat for the driver or passenger side exhaust.)

If it P0430 could be a few other things.
‣ Bad catalytic converter (obviously)
‣ Bad downstream (Sensor 2) Hot O₂ Sensor (HO2S)
‣ Bad wiring to the HO2S

An R&R on the cat can be a real PITA as the Y-Pipe studs are often seized-up at the exhaust manifolds and are awkward to get at.
An R&R on the HO2S (ACDelco PN: AFS106) is likewise a PITA as the threads of the sensor are notorious for being damn near impossible to remove sometimes.
(I had to resort to a MAPP torch and a 3 ft breaker with a crows-foot to get it off, also make sure to chase the internal threads before installing a new HO2S)

If possible, can your OBD2 scanner read real-time output from Bank 2 Sensor 2?
If so, can you report back on what it reads under the following conditions? it may help to determine if the issue is with the cat, the sensor, or the wiring.
‣ Cold, Idle
‣ Cold, Under Load
‣ At-Temp, Idle
‣ At-Temp, Under Load

If it is the wiring that is bad, these are the locations it could be at:
‣ The connection of the HO2S pigtail and the Oxygen sensor harness
‣ Somewhere in the oxygen sensor harness
‣ The connection (C107) from the Oxygen senor harness to the engine harness
‣ Somewhere in the engine harness
‣ The connection (C1) of the engine harness to the VCM.

It shouldn't be the ground or 12V power connections of the harness, as the lines are spliced together in the oxygen sensor harness and you would have codes across other sensors.
A frayed or broken conductor inside the harnesses would be difficult to diagnose, but the following diagram may help. The problem would only be in the highlighted conductors.
You must be registered for see images attach

S148 is "approx. 19 cm (7.5 in) into oxygen sensor harness"
S149 is "approx. 7 cm (2.5 in) from RH bank oxygen sensor breakout, toward LH bank oxygen sensor"
Thank you for the schematic sorry no the code reader is not live data capable. It is indeed the cat code bank 2 p0430. I certainly can chase back the circuit and report back
 
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