How much bass is too much bass?

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michael hurd

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Bl^2/Re is a universal measure of motor strength, where ( B ) is the magentic flux density in the gap the coil operates in, and ( l ) represents the length of wire in the coil. Re is simply the DC resistance of the coil.

Now, a motor can be fairly linear, or have falling strength on either side of rest. There are some super drivers that have over 30 mm excursion capability one way with 70% of it's rest motor strength, however these are few and far between, besides being very expensive. :)

Round wound coil or flat wire coil? That decision is usually based on the amount of ( l ) required for the intended bandwidth ( a balancing act with the inductance of said coil and the weight of the moving assembly ), the power level and the gauge of wire. Higher ( B ) levels are expensive to implement, more magnet volume as well as steel volume in the return path.

Flat wire coils can allow a tighter gap, leading to better thermal transfer from the coil to the magnetic assembly, as well as better flux density is realized when you tighten up the gap in the return structure. ( Higher B )
 

michael hurd

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Underhung or overhung motor topologies: Underhung drivers have very thick steel top plates on the magnetic structure, and a short voice coil. Overhung drivers have a thinner top plate, but long coils, and require more depth in the rear part of the motor for clearance.

Both can have fairly long stroke, the plus for the underhung is that at full stroke, the coil is still in the gap, and can transfer heat effectively.

The truth of the debate on which is better, is that they are both good when implemented properly.
 

michael hurd

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So let's say I'm going to go with a single sub, down firing, sealed enclosure. We'll say 10", 4 ohm, DVC for comparison's sake. I whipped up this spreadsheet, most of the info is from Crutchfield.

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What do you guys think? The kicker, being 2-3 times as powerful as the rest, as well as having nearly the lowest response and middle sensitivity seems like it would make it the winner, but I'll let the experts call this one. Any other good, sub-$200, shallow mount subs I'm forgetting?

What do I think about that chart? It is not really helpful in deciding what is good. :D
 

michael hurd

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What do amplifiers do in a nutshell? They make a small audio signal larger. That's what they do. As far as brand preference, etc.... that is inconsequential to choosing the right tool for the job.

Amplifiers do not create 'watts', they simply create a voltage that is relative to the input voltage, this ratio is fixed in stone until you exceed the voltage limits of the output devices / and / or exceed the input stage capability.

You can calculate the amount of 'wattage' going to a speaker by squaring the voltage and dividing by the impedance. ( notice I said impedance and not resistance )

Impedance varies with frequency, as well as being influenced by the type of enclosure ( sealed, ported, horn, bandpass, etc ) and the motor strength of the driver.

If we know the voltage, and we know the impedance, we can calculate the power used or 'wattage'. :D Problem being, what frequency do you pick>? :D
 

skylark

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What do amplifiers do in a nutshell? They make a small audio signal larger. That's what they do. As far as brand preference, etc.... that is inconsequential to choosing the right tool for the job.

Amplifiers do not create 'watts', they simply create a voltage that is relative to the input voltage, this ratio is fixed in stone until you exceed the voltage limits of the output devices / and / or exceed the input stage capability.

You can calculate the amount of 'wattage' going to a speaker by squaring the voltage and dividing by the impedance. ( notice I said impedance and not resistance )

Impedance varies with frequency, as well as being influenced by the type of enclosure ( sealed, ported, horn, bandpass, etc ) and the motor strength of the driver.

If we know the voltage, and we know the impedance, we can calculate the power used or 'wattage'. :D Problem being, what frequency do you pick>? :D

Between you and Great White... Is there any F-ing engineering/technical crap that the two of you don't know???
 

michael hurd

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If we had an amplifier that will develop 900 watts into a 4 ohm load, then it is capable of 60V into 4 ohms.

How do we know that? (60x60) / 4 = 900

If the amp will do this for one nano-second or for days on end, we don't know... :D

RMS is a mathematical representation of an AC signal that has the same heating effect of a DC signal, 0.707% of peak power.
 

michael hurd

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Speaking of amplifiers, duty cycle and crest factor, I figure I would put up a few pictures of my big dog QSC Powerlight touring amps. Yes, I use these at home... :D

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Large heatsinks and 2 different rail voltages inside this class H beast. It has no problems keeping cool, no matter what you ask of it.
 

great white

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Here's my .02


The GM Delco head unit isn't that bad actually. Unless you are going to spend a considerable amount of cash on an upper end unit, you're going to have a hard time beating it. Middle of the road head units (IE: 300-500 bucks-ish) aren't going to be a huge step up in sound quality, if any at all.

Have a look here: http://www.davidnavone.com/heresHow/files/OEM vs Aftermarket Decks21.pdf

Where the OEM deck really falls short is in accessories/options since it was built to perform certain specific functions as GM dictated.

No pre outs, no aux in (at least no the type we want), no amp remote turn on, etc.

Let me use my system as an example:

I occasionally listen to the radio and the rest is MP3 through my iphone. CD's are just a PITA in the truck for me so I don't have a CD player.

I use the OEM deck, a PA11-GM45 ipod interface, a David Navone R-NHL4 (copy) LOC, couple cheapy pioneer amps and a sony Xplode (more like explode:rofl:) 10"sub.


Let's start with the OEM Delco.

It's a cassette player deck in my truck. Yup, I said cassette player. It came with the truck but they also go pretty cheap. Thieves aren't going to bother with it either. As mentioned, it falls short in "options".

Because there are no "preouts", sound in the unit is routed through the internal amplifier assembly. All head units have a built in amp section of some sort or they wouldn't work at all without an external amp. The problem with head unit amps is they are small, tend to be cheap and introduce "noise" in the amplification process.

Pre outs allow you to bypass the built in amp section for cleaner sound to your external amps. Typically 1-3-ish volts on a cheap/middle line deck. More on this later.

Good news is the Delco amp section is fairly "clean". Not perfect, but good enough for all but the most demanding SQ freak in car audio IMHO.

The line level outs are both a good and bad thing.

Good thing you say? The higher line level voltage is not as subject to external noise on it's way to the amp.

Bad thing you say? Because it's post amp section in the head unit, the noise induced by the amp section is carried along in the signal and then the external amp amplifies both the audio and the noise.

The RCAs can do the same thing: any induced noise will be amplified by the amplifier. Induced noise on RCA lines is typical of poor installation practices and can usually be dealt with by doing a good/proper install.

This is where the R-RHL4 LOC comes in for my setup. The LOC steps it down to preout levels. Where the Navone one differs is that it is active rather than passive. There is some processing and then it steps it up to a 9V preout signal. this allows me to go to the RCA jacks on the amp.

The RCA jacks are preferred to the "line in" on amps because the line in is just a built in passive LOC in the amp. They tend to be cheaply built and are largely pointless for any decent sound. The RCAs bypass this circuit.

The other thing the LOC does is provide a remote amp turn on, triggered by the signal on the speaker line. You get your remote on signal and you avoid any "turn on thump"

I run the high level signal from the head unit to the LOC which is located right net to my amps. I get the high level resistance to induced noise from the HU to the amp and I get the RCA in I want.

Expensive? Nah, ten bucks. Seems Mr Navone either sourced it over seas or had it built there and the exact same thing is on ebay for ten bucks. He sells it for 30.

:)

I retain the nice features of the OEM deck. The integration to the interior, the ability to use OEM steering wheel controls and the speed volume control.

I have steering wheel audio controls also, so those are retained. You can retain them with aftermarket decks also, but you needs additional adapters.

As mentioned, I don't use CDs. I use my iphone to take my music with me. So I use the PA11-GM45 interface to connect it to the OEM radio. It goes in place of the OEM slave CD plug in on the HU. It charges the iphone, it plays through the HU, and it allows me to control the iphone through the radio/steering wheel controls. Simple stuff like forward and back, playlists, random, scan, on the iphone but that's enough for me.

I also use my iphone for OBDII interface, Hands free, voice texting, gps nav, etc. But that's another story.

The PA11-gm45 also has aux in ports for things that are not an iphone.

It gets pretty much as good as an aftermarket radio for inputs. Chuck in a Delco CD player head unit if you still use CDs and you're nearly got it all.

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Between the LOC and the PA11-GM45, I've got about 140 bucks in the whole head unit.

:)
 
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great white

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My amps and sub driver are far more pedestrian.

It's an old pioneer 4 way 600W amp and a pioneer 2 way 300W amp. Those a re peak numbers, RMS is a bit lower in this end of the market share. The big numbers look good on the box though!

:rofl:

The 600 is bridged to run two 150w RMS channels to the front MB quart components.

The 300 is bridged to run a single 150W RMS channel to the 10" 300W RMS sony Xplode sub. Note: the sub says 1000W, but that's peak. A mostly meaningless number. If you read the spec sheet it's only 300W RMS.

The rest of the "goodness" in my system comes from the installation:

4 gauge power wires from the battery to the inside fuse block. Careful routing, 12 gauge speaker wire, soldered terminations, aiming and phasing drivers, proper sized sealed box, proper grounds, etc.

There's just too many little details to write them all out. I'll just drop a couple pics and leave it at that. Mine is a "semi-stealth" install:

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It's all screwed and glued 3/4 MDF, the platform is 3/4 plywood, but doesn't form any of the sub box.

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Box is a sealed 1 Cuft. It looks too small for it, but it continues on under the platform.

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That's a clarion, not the 'splode. had to swap it out when it developed a rattle. I also have no rear seat, this platform works much better for my dogs. My daughter either rides up front with us or we take another car. She lives with her mom, so shes very seldom in the truck.

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Passive crossovers. I prefer active, but it's what I had lying around with the MB Quarts, so I used 'em.

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It will shake the metal panels when I want, but I usually don't have it that loud anyways.

Remember that properly setting the gains on your amplifiers is a critical step to good sound and to prevent clipping (IE:speaker death): http://www.davidnavone.com/heresHow/files/LevelSet222.pdf

You may have noticed, I only run a front sound stage.

Two 6.5 components up front, one sub. That's it. Sounds absolutely great. Just like sitting front row at a concert. Just the way I like it.

Not gonna lie either, it was mostly made up of left over and surplus components I had lying around.

Budget for sure. The Key is in how you install and adjust it as much as (if not more than) the components.

:)

another helpful link: http://www.davidnavone.com/heresHow/august2003.htm

Contrary to what it may seem, I'm not a "David Navone fanboy". He just has lots of easy to read stuff.
 
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