Socal LS Swap -Smog legal

[Knuckle Dragger]

I grew up in California. You are wrong on almost everything you just posted. When I was getting smog checks in LA county back in the 90's and 2000's they would connect an OBD1 vehicle to the computer and check for codes.

Shop owners are definitely responsible if they install anything that isn't an OE replacement for what is in there. Putting a 6.0 in there without going through the proper inspections and approvals will get them a $20,000 fine and possible impounding/destruction of the vehicle if the EPA or CARB finds out. CARB absolutely has a book of emissions categories and the referee will tell him exactly what to do.

Here's a great write up by someone that has actually gone through it... twice. Including swapping a 6.0 into a V2500 squarebody suburban.

https://www.gmsquarebody.com/threads/ca-legal-ls-swap.33893/#post-686228

Go back through and re-read my post. You missed most of it in your fever to reply, I never posted ANYTHING about shop installed swaps or parts. I referenced that the shop owners must pay for the equipment to test. Reading IS fundamental. Secondly, I did smog tests and repairs in California for 15+ years as well as working for the California Bureau of Automotive Repair for a short time before I left for Arizona. Including the time frame you state expertise because you watched tests being performed. I've personally done three smog legal EFI swaps in California over the 30 years I lived there. Everything I have said is from personal experience within the industry, hands on stuff, not what I read on the internet. I stand by everything I posted.

And you realize CARB and the EPA don't do the enforcement of emissions laws in California, right? It's the Bureau of Automotive repair and the states attorneys. I'm not sure where you pulled impounding the vehicle from but that's not the case. They would simply not let you register it. They cannot seize the vehicle for illegal emissions modifications. The $20k fine you posted must be some arbitrary figure you pulled out of,.... well you know. Fines are based on restitution and cost of investigation for the repair shop. They don't fine the car owner. The owner would only be responsible to bring it back into compliance before being able to drive the vehicle on the street. And no, there still no book on legal or not legal for swaps no mater how many time you insist there is one. I believe you are confused with the manual (not published by the state or CARB) that lists required equipment on make and model. There is no guide for swap laws. Everything must comply with the make and model you are basing the swap on. You know just enough to look silly to folks that really do know.

 

[BeXtreme]

Go back through and re-read my post. You missed most of it in your fever to reply, I never posted ANYTHING about shop installed swaps or parts. I referenced that the shop owners must pay for the equipment to test.

It really is.

In California the shop owners are responsible for equipment upgrades.

Maybe be more clear about what you are talking about? We are talking about swaps and referees, you can't just take your swap to any place and have it tested. It goes to a specific referee and gets it's own CARB label that says that the new stuff complies as a replacement in your specific VIN.

You are real good at attacking people, but it really seems like you haven't been in this game in a very long time. Things change, the EPA is way more involved than they used to be and everyone is cracking down on a lot of this stuff.

And you realize CARB and the EPA don't do the enforcement of emissions laws in California, right?

This is incorrect. EPA is THE enforcement of emissions laws nationwide. There are additional laws and requirements at then state level and those are what you are talking about. Modification of any emissions device without going through re certification can receive a civil penalty by the federal EPA of up to $45,268. Here's my source since you think everything is pulled from out of thin air. https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/cle...olators are subject to civil,§ 7524; 40 C.F.R.

There's a list in there of how much people have been fined under that per year. They mostly go after big manufacturers, but there are also individuals that get hit with it.

 

[BeXtreme]

And no, there still no book on legal or not legal for swaps no mater how many time you insist there is one. I believe you are confused with the manual (not published by the state or CARB) that lists required equipment on make and model. There is no guide for swap laws. Everything must comply with the make and model you are basing the swap on. You know just enough to look silly to folks that really do know.

There is, in fact, a book for this. It is actually published by the people you seem to think you are an expert with?

Here is the BAR link: https://www.bar.ca.gov/consumer/smog-check-program/engine-changes
That points to the PDF for smog check: https://www.bar.ca.gov/pdf/smog-check-reference-guide.pdf

Which then has VERY SPECIFIC requirements contained in Appendix D which are exactly what I have been saying. The document I'm talking about for Make/model info that must match is the EO# document for the old vehicle VIN and new motor VIN. It is, in-fact, published.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

It really is.

Maybe be more clear about what you are talking about? We are talking about swaps and referees, you can't just take your swap to any place and have it tested. It goes to a specific referee and gets it's own CARB label that says that the new stuff complies as a replacement in your specific VIN.

You are real good at attacking people, but it really seems like you haven't been in this game in a very long time. Things change, the EPA is way more involved than they used to be and everyone is cracking down on a lot of this stuff.


This is incorrect. EPA is THE enforcement of emissions laws nationwide. There are additional laws and requirements at then state level and those are what you are talking about. Modification of any emissions device without going through re certification can receive a civil penalty by the federal EPA of up to $45,268. Here's my source since you think everything is pulled from out of thin air. https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/clean-air-act-vehicle-and-engine-enforcement-case-resolutions#:~:text=Violators are subject to civil,§ 7524; 40 C.F.R.

There's a list in there of how much people have been fined under that per year. They mostly go after big manufacturers, but there are also individuals that get hit with it.

You proved my point with your link. Show me one individual car owner fined, just one. They are all shops, not the vehicle owner. They are fined for performing modifications or selling emissions defeat parts. Not the car owner. They can't seize your personal vehicle or fine the consumer. Show me where a shop owner posted in this thread asking how to do a swap. It's a discussion on one guy trying to swap an LS into his ride. You come up with cherry picked BS and try to scare folks into your way of thinking. The subject gets muddied and we have all the confusion about California smog law.

Secondly the requirements you link are exactly what I've been saying. It's not a book on what you can or can't swap, it's a book of required equipment for each configuration. While I did gloss over the swaps have to be similar weight ratings and such, the thread is about a guy putting a LS in his 1500.

It's obvious you're one of those guys that is only interested in trying to win the internet then actually understand what's legal and what isn't. Guys like you are the problem that cost people a lot of time and money. You post half truths and parroted BS you got from your uncle's brothers girlfriend and pass it off as fact. I can't help your comprehension skill. Maybe read the posts when your calm not all uptight trying to be right. I stand by what I've posted. I started as an apprentice at Guarantee Chevrolet in Santa Ana in 1986, I got my ASE Masters Certification in the early 90's and my California Emissions license in the mid 90's. I've been the guy testing the vehicles, taking the endless hours of training the state required and have 37 years of real world hands on experience, and you've watched a couple of tests be performed and read internet forums. The other members can make up their own mind at this point.

 

[Sean Buick 76]

Have you considered moving to a less communicative state?

 

[L31MaxExpress]

There is no "book" like you talk about. A 6.0 could be done. You have to pretend it's a 5.3 and base the swap on that. They won't check the block numbers. I can't imagine they have upgraded their systems to be able to see if the programing has been altered to show what codes have been tuned out at this point. Maybe down the road. In California the shop owners are responsible for equipment upgrades. The state is careful not to to demand more then the market can bear so the changes come slow. IIRC they won't even hook to a OBDI ALDL. I know for a fact they don't in Arizona.

BTW, OBD II started in 96 not 94

This is why California Smog laws seems so complicated. Way too much misinformation out there.

They absolutely can identify tuning changes. I can pull the CVN ID numbers by the VIN in the online GM database in about 20 seconds, hook an inexpensive bluetooth scanner into my OBD2 port and tell if ANYTHING has been changed in any of the control modules in about 1 minute. The state of California is now failing non stock OBD2 tuning. Even if it is a single value in the tune changed like disabling the VATS switch the CVN value will change. The CVN numbers are how I verify a PCM I am about to tune is still stock. If it is not stock, gets reflashed stock before I change anything.

A few years ago my buddy got a letter from the state of Texas that he needed to take his truck to a specific location here. Turns out the shop that had inspected his truck got busted for illegal inspections. He has an 0411 in the truck. Its a 1997 truck and the VIN from the PCM the state machine read came back as a 2002 Savanna. He ended up talking with someone there, he basically said, my truck has a junkyard computer from a van with the same engine, they literally let him plug his OBD2 scanner into the truck, take a picture of the VIN on the scanner, the VIN on the truck, and cable plugged into the truck, they said OK, have a great day.

 

[Road Trip]

They absolutely can identify tuning changes. I can pull the CVN ID numbers by the VIN in the online GM database in about 20 seconds, hook an inexpensive bluetooth scanner into my OBD2 port and tell if ANYTHING has been changed in any of the control modules in about 1 minute. The state of California is now failing non stock OBD2 tuning. Even if it is a single value in the tune changed like disabling the VATS switch the CVN value will change. The CVN numbers are how I verify a PCM I am about to tune is still stock. If it is not stock, gets reflashed stock before I change anything.

Cali BAR has the following on their website. Starting in July '20, they state that they are doing
exactly what @L31MaxExpress stated above: (BAR -- Cal ID and CVN Detect Programming Modifications)

And the way that these unique numbers are generated & embedded into the image, as well as how we
can verify that no changes (intentional or accidental) have occurred since the file was initially released?
The magic of Checksums: (CHECKSUMS) And I'm basing my belief in checksums not from just something
I read on the internet, but 20+ years supporting large computer systems in civilian raised floor computer
rooms plus another 20+ years loading/verifying images into military Avionics. So when L31MaxExpress
shared the above it had the absolute ring of truth to yours truly.

****

I realize that it's fashionable for some to paint with a broad brush & state that everyone on the interwebs
are playing loose & fast with reality, but I've learned that when some folks share their input it's worth
reading for comprehension instead of rejecting it out of hand.

FWIW --

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Cali BAR has the following on their website. Starting in July '20, they state that they are doing
exactly what @L31MaxExpress stated above: (BAR -- Cal ID and CVN Detect Programming Modifications)

And the way that these unique numbers are generated & embedded into the image, as well as how we
can verify that no changes (intentional or accidental) have occurred since the file was initially released?
The magic of Checksums: (CHECKSUMS) And I'm basing my belief in checksums not from just something
I read on the internet, but 20+ years supporting large computer systems in civilian raised floor computer
rooms plus another 20+ years loading/verifying images into military Avionics. So when L31MaxExpress
shared the above it had the absolute ring of truth to yours truly.

****

I realize that it's fashionable for some to paint with a broad brush & state that everyone on the interwebs
are playing loose & fast with reality, but I've learned that when some folks share their input it's worth
reading for comprehension instead of rejecting it out of hand.

FWIW --

I assumed it would be some sort of checksum when they got around to figuring it out, I am surprised it has come on board so quickly. I assume all the other states will follow, I hope Arizona takes it's time getting around to it.

 

[PlayingWithTBI]

I hope Arizona takes it's time getting around to it.

And keep their current laws on Historic Plates and Collector Car Insurance

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

And keep their current laws on Historic Plates and Collector Car Insurance

We can always go that route but I drive my LS swapped S10 Blazer every day. I'd hate to have to put it on classic and locked in the garage 80% of the time.