Early ABS Hydraulic Unit (RWAL)

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WV_Dave

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My 94 C1500 has the wonderful JB5 brakes. I'm going through it, replacing the bad stuff and trying to narrow down the awful pedal feel. I keep seeing posts about the notorious RWAL.

I've seen a lot of threads about deleting the hydraulic unit. From what I've read, this part gets gunk in the valve and is the biggest cause of the awful pedal feel and lack of rear brakes.

Has anyone tried replacing it with this reman unit from Cardone? If so, did the factory pedal return? My state has vehicle inspections and they're arseholes about ABS lights (staying on AND not coming on at startup) so I'd like to keep the factory system intact if at all possible.

ABS Hydraulic Unit

Appreciate any input.
 

Nad_Yvalhosert

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I might have been sheltered, but my '88 that I've had since '98, has never had an RWAL problem. Everything else, yes.
Blown F2R brake line the 2nd day I had it, which emptied the master cyl.
Warped drums that cracked the shoes.
Blown front lines, again emptying the master.
Blown wheel cylinders, damn master went empty again.
Finally developed a bad master...
Every time I bled the brakes and the RWAL worked as expected.
Maybe its because I flushed it so many times in the first 10 years I had it.

As for yours, I've never seen an RWAL system that would illuminate an ABS light. I thought that was a 3-port ABS system option? I know 4 wheel ABS is standard on '95+...
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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My 94 C1500 has the wonderful JB5 brakes. I'm ... trying to narrow down the awful pedal feel.

Appreciate any input.

I'm not making any claims whether your ABS is bad or good.

I do believe you'll have much better pedal feel if you replace the MC with one from an 8600# system and install the corresponding calipers.

You may use the NBS MC if you like, but the 8600# MC should do the trick... with the calipers.

Doing so eliminates the "quick take up" components from the front brake system.

That's my $0.02 on the front brakes and "brake feel".

There's still more that can be done, but that's what I would suggest first. It and other changes you might consider have been discussed time and time again on GMT400, some of them most recently here: https://www.gmt400.com/threads/upgrade-front-brake-calipers.58795/

I believe your rear brakes are 10". Those are notorious for their shortcomings as you likely have read.

I have the JB6 11" drums.

I'm not keen on some of the rear disc conversions kits, e.g., that by Little Shop Mfg and other clones.

There's one disc conversion I've seen for the 10" drums, which I know little about except for the video, that overcomes one significant shortcoming of the others: It uses a newer style "caliper bracket" and caliper assembly. The caliper bracket provides abutments for the pads. Those abutments transfer the braking forces from the pads into the caliper bracket. LSM and clones provide no such abutments to manage the braking forces.

Google "GMT400 Rear Disc Brake Conversion (Part 1)". It's a video by EricTheCarGuy.

I'm not saying the kit shown is suitable. I'm only saying it overcomes one obvious shortcoming of others.
 
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Schurkey

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JB5 beats the hell out of the JN3 system my truck was built with.

I now have the equivalent of JB6 brakes. The hateful 254mm (10 inch) Leading/Trailing rear drums were replaced with the 11.x Duo-Servo rear brakes when the rear axle was upgraded to a 9.5" semi-float unit.

Replacing/upgrading the rear drum system made more difference than upgrading the front discs. I'd start the upgrades at the rear (which is not the same as "repairs", and in many cases repairs should be done before upgrades.)

Adjust the rear brakes, make sure the calipers float properly and the pistons aren't sticky in the bores. When it was me, I pulled the calipers apart for cleaning and inspection.
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Bleed the RWAL however the service manual suggests. The early iron-body RWAL have a bleeder screw. The later aluminum-body RWAL don't; so I assume there's a scan-tool procedure.
 

WV_Dave

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Is there a bolt on upgrade to the stock 10" rear drum system if you keep the 8.5" 10 bolt diff?

ETA: I didn't mean to imply my light was on. It works fine. Comes on for a couple seconds at startup and goes off. When a brake line burst, the light came on like it should have. My problem would be if I deleted the the system and no longer got the light on startup. Can it be removed from the equation but left in place and wired up? Does it know if it's still plumbed in?

What's kinda funny, in EricTheCarGuy's video mentioned above, he upgrades the rear brakes BUT deletes the RWAL system at the same time. So what made his brakes feel better?
 
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1998_K1500_Sub

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Is there a bolt on upgrade to the stock 10" rear drum system if you keep the 8.5" 10 bolt diff?

I believe the 11” drum backing plates use a different bolt pattern (where they bolt to the axle tube) that prevents the simple swapping of 11” for 10”. Perhaps someone has modified an 11” drum backing plate to enable its fitment on a OE 10” drum rear. I haven’t researched it.

There are 11” drum 8.5” rears out there and 11” drum 9.5” rears as well (the stouter option) as upgrade paths, with the attendant issue of finding the gear ratio and bolt count (5/6/8) that fits your objectives.

What's kinda funny, in EricTheCarGuy's video mentioned above, he upgrades the rear brakes BUT deletes the RWAL system at the same time. So what made his brakes feel better?

Good observation!

Valid question.
 
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WV_Dave

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Here is a link to SSBC's "firm feel" master cylinder: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/TSB-A0463

It's over $300 and comes as part of the $1k+ kit if you get their rear disc brake conversion. It appears, at least on the outside to just be a 99-06 NBS master cylinder with an adapter screwed in on one side.

Is there an issue with using the smaller, "quick-take-up" front calibers (JB5) with an NBS master cylinder?

This truck is meant to serve as a light duty, inexpensive shop truck. I'm not planning on racing, hot-roding or even towing with this truck. It doesn't need heavy duty brakes for any reason.

All I'm trying to achieve is a nice safe feeling when I brake instead of the long travel, spongey feel of uncertainness I have now.
 

1998_K1500_Sub

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Here is a link to SSBC's "firm feel" master cylinder: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/TSB-A0463

It's over $300 and comes as part of the $1k+ kit if you get their rear disc brake conversion. It appears, at least on the outside to just be a 99-06 NBS master cylinder with an adapter screwed in on one side.

I believe the same as you regarding SSBC's MC. Little Shop Mfg's MC is similar / identical AFAIK.

FYI, the NBS MC is appropriate if one's doing a rear disc conversion, as the reservoir is large to accommodate the volume of fluid required. But I and others have used it for a disc/drum setup.

Having said that, the 8600# MC (OE for disk/drum) is just as appropriate for your setup, perhaps more-so because it's piston diameter is smaller than the NBS MC's... which means more braking effect for a given amount of effort. @Schurkey has made this point many times.

Is there an issue with using the smaller, "quick-take-up" front calibers (JB5) with an NBS master cylinder?

@Schurkey has commented on this topic often. The issue appears to be the lost motion required of the smaller, non-quick-take-up MC piston that's necessary to provide the gush of fluid required to bring the quick-take-up calipers into play. I'll try to explain. The NBS and 8600# MCs do not have the large, quick-take-up specific piston which is designed to come into play upon initial application and provide that initial gush to the calipers to "quickly take up" the slack space (which, by my thinking anyway, is one of the reasons for the crappy feel of those the quick-take-up brakes upon application, esp. upon panic application).

The attached document will aid in understanding, it's a simple 2-pager from Bendix / Allied Signal which explains the quick-take-up brakes and the mixing / matching of components.

Of course, there's anyways the question of "Do you really have quick-take-up calipers on your truck?" (as noted in the Bendix document), and if so "Are they working as intended?", which may not be the case. So these are reasons why I simply $h!tcanned the JB6 front brakes on my Suburban and installed components (NBS / JB7) which were non-"quick take up" by design.


This truck is meant to serve as a light duty, inexpensive shop truck. I'm not planning on racing, hot-roding or even towing with this truck. It doesn't need heavy duty brakes for any reason.

Acknowledged.

Honestly, Dad's 1995 K1500 RCLB w/ JB5 would brake reasonably well, it was certainly a better "feel" than my 1998 K1500 Suburban w/ OE JB6 brakes... and I'm sure that his rear drums were never given a "drums-off adjustment" the entire 10+ years he owned it, and the brakes were probably never bled. Dad's truck was a "driver", rarely carried much of a load or towed much of a trailer, akin to yours.

For the record, my 1998 Suburban was a different beast, the OE JB6 brakes always left one with an uneasy feeling during initial application, and were downright scary in a panic. So I took every step I could muster (except hydroboost, tho I have the parts) to improve the brakes and, I believe, I had great success... I'm very happy, anyway. I made my changes more or less step-by-step literally over the span of years, and with every step the braking was improved... sometimes the brake "feel", other times the braking "ability".

Both trucks had the quick-take-up brakes. Why the difference? I'm not absolutely certain. The Suburban weighs ~6300#, Dad's RCLB was certainly less.

All I'm trying to achieve is a nice safe feeling when I brake instead of the long travel, spongey feel of uncertainness I have now.

Understood.

Let's see what others say, and I'll mull it over as well. @Schurkey has already weighed-in, and may comment further. He knows brakes.
 

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  • Low drag calipers - Quick Take-up.pdf
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WV_Dave

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Appreciate all the info!

My suburban has JD9 brakes (hydroboost and 13" drums) and it feels way better compared to the truck.

I'm going to go back over everything again and check for any of the problems I didn't know to look for earlier.

I'll update soon with results.

ETA: Does anyone know what JD9 means exactly? I see JB/JD 5-8 thrown around a lot and I have a good understanding of what those mean, but does JD9 mean exactly?
 
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