Driveline Vibrations---Possible Driveshaft Issues?

[Caman96]

After my front end build this past summer I had new tires mounted and “balanced”.

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Look at what they did! I quickly ordered a new “reconditioned” OEM wheel.

 

[BBslider001]

Still sounds like the first place to look is the last place someone worked.

I never had an eva meter in my hands but have seen techs use them. Useful tool. As a collision tech I'm dealing with a crashed vehicle so generally I know where to start looking for drivability issues. I didn't read your front end thread but any chance you tightened suspension bushings up before dropping the truck back on it's weight tearing a bushing?

New doesn't mean good. I put 2 Moog idlers on my truck that didn't last a month. The 3rd has been on 12 years. Go back over all of what you did.

You said you got new tires. What you didn't say was that you walked into the tire shop and let them know you were chasing a drivability issue. It's not really the tire guys job to diagnose bent rims but had he noticed a little excessive runout it's doubtful he would have mentioned it, if you didn't say anything. You need absolutes in a process of elimination not guesses. Something is loose, has excessive runout, or is out of balance. Loose and runout are rather straight forward to check. Make sure you find the problem and not just finding a symptom.

Vibration and harmonics can do a lot of damage. Think old Harley Davidson where vibration would crack welded on frame brackets.

Interesting you bring it up, but there is an app you can use that a few mechanics swear by called NVH vibration analyzer. One guy found a bent rim AND a bad carrier bearing. I'll post the vid below. I am thinking about getting the app and seeing if I can find what's going on. And yes, I didn't mention driveability. I should have. I might go revisit them tomorrow and because one wheel has two larger weights in one side and from my understanding, it shouldn't take that much weight to balance a new tire.
Last thing, I didn't do the front end work, but I can get under there and check everything for sure. Front end feels very good and smooth, no binding, but it could be the issue. I do realize that "new" does not always mean good. I really wish I would have just tackled this myself from the beginning.

To recap:
ENTIRE new front end job
New tires (stock Coopers)
New brakes all around
New axle seals
New drums twice

 

[BBslider001]

After my front end build this past summer I had new tires mounted and “balanced”.

You must be registered for see images attach

Look at what they did! I quickly ordered a new “reconditioned” OEM wheel.

Could very well be my issue. I guess I need to go in tomorrow and ask if they can check for a bent rim and what's going on.

 

[alignman88]

All the “guestimation” really goes down a time wasting hole. The article link with the guys wanting to balance rim, then balance tires and rim together is a complete waste of time.

All modern computer wheel balancers have an Optimize Balance (could be different names, that has tech place the assembly on shaft and it calculates assembly balance. Then you place a mark on the rim to index it to the shaft. Assembly is removed and tire turned 180 degrees on rim. Placed back on machine with first index mark in same position before removed. Second spin shows imbalance and the difference calculated by machine. Operator is directed to mark rim with a second index mark, then the tire is marked. Remove assembly and align the rim mark to tire mark. Spin a third time and add correction weights. This reduces the total amount correction weight needed IF there is truly a large enough rim imbalance.

Now what MUST be considered is how was the assembly mounted to the shaft. Was it properly centered in a concentric manner based on their choice of centering cone or low taper collet? Some balancers (Hunter) have a patented centering check process that does spin balance, remove assembly and rotate it 180 degrees (do not dismount) and place back on shaft. Second spin then it compares it to the first. If imbalance results are within a 1/4 ounce of each other, and the clock position of detected imbalance is within an incredibly small amount-typically within a third of the length of the needed correction weight needed it’s properly centered. The picture with all the wheel weights is a classic! Computer balancers expect a certain distance in the weight circle (area that is selected by operator where weights will be placed) for the amount of correction weight calculated. String a bunch of different sizes like that together and you mess with the math.

A balanced assembly is exactly that folks. It doesn’t matter how much is rim or how much is tire you’re balancing an ASSEMBLY.

Non-imbalance ride disturbances are a totally different thing, as that relates to assembly uniformity. I’m confident in saying at least 50% of tire shop employees do more to impact this by not cleaning the bead seat of the wheel then do not properly lubricate the rim/tire causing the bead not to seat properly. Saw it myself at an undisclosed lol OEM North American headquarters and techs saying the Hunter Road Force didn’t work. All A level techs but you don’t know what you don’t know applies to all of us.

Hunter Road Force machines apply load to the tire (1,200 lbs) when rotating and compress the sidewalls to detect Radial Force Variations (RFV). Do the sidewalls compress the same amount at the same rate all the way around the tire. Sidewalls are nothing more than springs. Manufacturing variances or road damage may cause there to be a spot that has an appreciable “stiffer spring” not compressing the same and that (RFV) cause a ride disturbance that is UNIFORMITY related and that is not balance. I refer to it’s a non-imbalance ride disturbance to help explain the difference. You can balance an egg, but place it on the ground how does it roll. The fix is to park the high spot of tire at the low spot of the rim, this decreasing RFV. This is why you get a “new car ride” from a new car usually. OEM’s get tires that have been ran through a Tire Uniformity Grade (Tug machine) that detects and marks the stiff spot with a colored dot. Some will have the heavy static imbalance marked as well then when assembled the tire and rim are match mounted accordingly.

Jeez sorry to ramble on but it helps to know what we don’t know, ya know? LOL.

If it shook like a dog trying to poop a peach seed before the tires were swapped and it still does it could be something else, but here’s where I would go next. Someone pointed out that you could have a bound bushing in the suspension after replacing everything. That’s a good point! I have personally diagnosed and repaired 3 semi tractors that came to me for vibrations, and 2 of them would be fine then BAM bad vibration! Turns out it was the same on all 3-bad and bound up spring pin bushings in the front end. I’ve also helped several guys by phone find the same thing with some being bad bound up rear bushings.

Now you see why I brought up FIND SOMEONE WITH AN EVA METER?????

This can easily turn into your personal Waterloo without the technology and someone educated enough to use it. I would have loved to get my hands on it while teaching a NVH class back in the day. Sounds like a real b*tch!!!

Thank you for attending my TED Talk

 

[BBslider001]

All the “guestimation” really goes down a time wasting hole. The article link with the guys wanting to balance rim, then balance tires and rim together is a complete waste of time.

All modern computer wheel balancers have an Optimize Balance (could be different names, that has tech place the assembly on shaft and it calculates assembly balance. Then you place a mark on the rim to index it to the shaft. Assembly is removed and tire turned 180 degrees on rim. Placed back on machine with first index mark in same position before removed. Second spin shows imbalance and the difference calculated by machine. Operator is directed to mark rim with a second index mark, then the tire is marked. Remove assembly and align the rim mark to tire mark. Spin a third time and add correction weights. This reduces the total amount correction weight needed IF there is truly a large enough rim imbalance.

Now what MUST be considered is how was the assembly mounted to the shaft. Was it properly centered in a concentric manner based on their choice of centering cone or low taper collet? Some balancers (Hunter) have a patented centering check process that does spin balance, remove assembly and rotate it 180 degrees (do not dismount) and place back on shaft. Second spin then it compares it to the first. If imbalance results are within a 1/4 ounce of each other, and the clock position of detected imbalance is within an incredibly small amount-typically within a third of the length of the needed correction weight needed it’s properly centered. The picture with all the wheel weights is a classic! Computer balancers expect a certain distance in the weight circle (area that is selected by operator where weights will be placed) for the amount of correction weight calculated. String a bunch of different sizes like that together and you mess with the math.

A balanced assembly is exactly that folks. It doesn’t matter how much is rim or how much is tire you’re balancing an ASSEMBLY.

Non-imbalance ride disturbances are a totally different thing, as that relates to assembly uniformity. I’m confident in saying at least 50% of tire shop employees do more to impact this by not cleaning the bead seat of the wheel then do not properly lubricate the rim/tire causing the bead not to seat properly. Saw it myself at an undisclosed lol OEM North American headquarters and techs saying the Hunter Road Force didn’t work. All A level techs but you don’t know what you don’t know applies to all of us.

Hunter Road Force machines apply load to the tire (1,200 lbs) when rotating and compress the sidewalls to detect Radial Force Variations (RFV). Do the sidewalls compress the same amount at the same rate all the way around the tire. Sidewalls are nothing more than springs. Manufacturing variances or road damage may cause there to be a spot that has an appreciable “stiffer spring” not compressing the same and that (RFV) cause a ride disturbance that is UNIFORMITY related and that is not balance. I refer to it’s a non-imbalance ride disturbance to help explain the difference. You can balance an egg, but place it on the ground how does it roll. The fix is to park the high spot of tire at the low spot of the rim, this decreasing RFV. This is why you get a “new car ride” from a new car usually. OEM’s get tires that have been ran through a Tire Uniformity Grade (Tug machine) that detects and marks the stiff spot with a colored dot. Some will have the heavy static imbalance marked as well then when assembled the tire and rim are match mounted accordingly.

Jeez sorry to ramble on but it helps to know what we don’t know, ya know? LOL.

If it shook like a dog trying to poop a peach seed before the tires were swapped and it still does it could be something else, but here’s where I would go next. Someone pointed out that you could have a bound bushing in the suspension after replacing everything. That’s a good point! I have personally diagnosed and repaired 3 semi tractors that came to me for vibrations, and 2 of them would be fine then BAM bad vibration! Turns out it was the same on all 3-bad and bound up spring pin bushings in the front end. I’ve also helped several guys by phone find the same thing with some being bad bound up rear bushings.

Now you see why I brought up FIND SOMEONE WITH AN EVA METER?????

This can easily turn into your personal Waterloo without the technology and someone educated enough to use it. I would have loved to get my hands on it while teaching a NVH class back in the day. Sounds like a real b*tch!!!

Thank you for attending my TED Talk

I wish I could find someone! I'd go in a heartbeat and pay whatever diag I had to. I have called at least 12 places. I will call more in the morning while forum searching and having my coffee. I will also rotate the driveshaft and check u-joints while I am at it. Do you think the NVH app is worth it? It's $99. I have spent way more than that chasing....I know, shame on me. And TED talk is good with me LOL

 

[Hipster]

All the “guestimation” really goes down a time wasting hole. The article link with the guys wanting to balance rim, then balance tires and rim together is a complete waste of time.

All modern computer wheel balancers have an Optimize Balance (could be different names, that has tech place the assembly on shaft and it calculates assembly balance. Then you place a mark on the rim to index it to the shaft. Assembly is removed and tire turned 180 degrees on rim. Placed back on machine with first index mark in same position before removed. Second spin shows imbalance and the difference calculated by machine. Operator is directed to mark rim with a second index mark, then the tire is marked. Remove assembly and align the rim mark to tire mark. Spin a third time and add correction weights. This reduces the total amount correction weight needed IF there is truly a large enough rim imbalance.

Now what MUST be considered is how was the assembly mounted to the shaft. Was it properly centered in a concentric manner based on their choice of centering cone or low taper collet? Some balancers (Hunter) have a patented centering check process that does spin balance, remove assembly and rotate it 180 degrees (do not dismount) and place back on shaft. Second spin then it compares it to the first. If imbalance results are within a 1/4 ounce of each other, and the clock position of detected imbalance is within an incredibly small amount-typically within a third of the length of the needed correction weight needed it’s properly centered. The picture with all the wheel weights is a classic! Computer balancers expect a certain distance in the weight circle (area that is selected by operator where weights will be placed) for the amount of correction weight calculated. String a bunch of different sizes like that together and you mess with the math.

A balanced assembly is exactly that folks. It doesn’t matter how much is rim or how much is tire you’re balancing an ASSEMBLY.

Non-imbalance ride disturbances are a totally different thing, as that relates to assembly uniformity. I’m confident in saying at least 50% of tire shop employees do more to impact this by not cleaning the bead seat of the wheel then do not properly lubricate the rim/tire causing the bead not to seat properly. Saw it myself at an undisclosed lol OEM North American headquarters and techs saying the Hunter Road Force didn’t work. All A level techs but you don’t know what you don’t know applies to all of us.

Hunter Road Force machines apply load to the tire (1,200 lbs) when rotating and compress the sidewalls to detect Radial Force Variations (RFV). Do the sidewalls compress the same amount at the same rate all the way around the tire. Sidewalls are nothing more than springs. Manufacturing variances or road damage may cause there to be a spot that has an appreciable “stiffer spring” not compressing the same and that (RFV) cause a ride disturbance that is UNIFORMITY related and that is not balance. I refer to it’s a non-imbalance ride disturbance to help explain the difference. You can balance an egg, but place it on the ground how does it roll. The fix is to park the high spot of tire at the low spot of the rim, this decreasing RFV. This is why you get a “new car ride” from a new car usually. OEM’s get tires that have been ran through a Tire Uniformity Grade (Tug machine) that detects and marks the stiff spot with a colored dot. Some will have the heavy static imbalance marked as well then when assembled the tire and rim are match mounted accordingly.

Jeez sorry to ramble on but it helps to know what we don’t know, ya know? LOL.

If it shook like a dog trying to poop a peach seed before the tires were swapped and it still does it could be something else, but here’s where I would go next. Someone pointed out that you could have a bound bushing in the suspension after replacing everything. That’s a good point! I have personally diagnosed and repaired 3 semi tractors that came to me for vibrations, and 2 of them would be fine then BAM bad vibration! Turns out it was the same on all 3-bad and bound up spring pin bushings in the front end. I’ve also helped several guys by phone find the same thing with some being bad bound up rear bushings.

Now you see why I brought up FIND SOMEONE WITH AN EVA METER?????

This can easily turn into your personal Waterloo without the technology and someone educated enough to use it. I would have loved to get my hands on it while teaching a NVH class back in the day. Sounds like a real b*tch!!!

Thank you for attending my TED Talk

Ted talk. lol Well said, and totally agree. I've never seen an A level tech doing the things you describe working at a tire store. Not sure an A level tech would put in an application at a tire store.

I've been to many training classes with an instructor that worked for Car-0-Liner frame equipment. He also headed up the frame and structural/measuring classes of our local I-Car training as well. He did the suspension and steering diagnostics class as well. You don't know what you don't know was one of his favorite sayings. He finished every class with you now know more of what you didn't know and I don't want to use you as an example of what not to do in my next class. lol

 

[BBslider001]

Alright, is 2.5 oz of weight on one wheel considered too much?

 

[Caman96]

A balanced assembly is exactly that folks. It doesn’t matter how much is rim or how much is tire you’re balancing an ASSEMBLY.

I had no use for this balanced assembly. I also feel it’s good to know whether or not you have a bent or defective wheel.

 

[BBslider001]

When I rotate 180*, am I taking it off all the way or rotating the transfer case and just putting the straos back on?

 

[sewlow]

Just rotate at the straps.