411 Swap

[BeXtreme]

Get a good OBDII reader and log your knock counts and timing along with MAP reading and CTS reading. I bet you find that something is seriously off.

 

[L31MaxExpress]

At high load, very low rpm I am sure the timing map is negative as it is on most GM vehicles since the advent of computer controls. At 9.4:1 compression with iron heads with all the weight it is trying to pull around, all adding timing there will do is make it ping. As I said before timing can be added, but it will require 91+ octane.

 

[L31MaxExpress]

These are from a 350, but the 4.3 is about the same. PE spark adder adds about 2-4° only at WOT. EGR adder adds 2-4 in the 50kpa and 2,000 rpm range when EGR is active. The IAT and CTS compensation tables can remove up to 10° and thats progressively over 190°F coolant or 100°F intake air. 170°F thermostat will help minimize the heat induced timing retard.

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[thebigcar]

The 0411 ECU swap is more for a performance application, tuning, and such (think radical cam swap, forced induction, etc.) In a stock application, I don't think there's really much gain, if any at all. Maybe slight idle improvement? As mentioned, it may likely introduce other problems if you get any wires mixed up (there's like 4 dozen wires to swap!?), then you will have a real mess on your hands.

If you have an underlying problem, which sounds like you do, it's not going to get fixed, most likely.

Perhaps you can start a thread (or continue here) on your van issue and and someone here can help you out...

the 0411 will increase the redline from the hardware limited 5500rpm in the blackboxes, inprove mid-band driveability AND let you (re)program your shift points so there is a benefit to upgrading to one even in a stock configuration. HOWEVER while the 0411 and new connector kits are cheap, the reprogramming (either by the owner if they don't already own software or by a shop) is relatively expensive.

 

[oldguy44]

OK I pulled a plug to get a tdc mark. Cut a hole in the top of the bellhousing and paint marked a tooth on the flywheel for a registration point. I now know what is happening I just don't know why. The engine is idling with about 20 degrees of timing, I am giving each tooth on the ring gear a value of 2 degrees which is probably not exact but it is close enough for my purposes. You put the trans in gear and power brake it and the timing starts backing down. At about half throttle the timing is around 6 to 8 degrees. Now if you are correct in your assessment I would have to say that it may be normal computer programming but it is not how engines run. I have put a lot of small blocks in a lot of engine compartments and I can say without reservation that the engine in my van needs 20 to 25 degrees coming off idle for optimum performance and with a compression ratio of probably 8.5 to 9, 30 degrees will not do any damage or cause any ping with regular gas at 1000 to 1500 rpm. So if this ECM is working as General Menace programmed it to, it needs some serious help.
I once had a 300 inch small block with Hillborn port injection and 11.0 compression in a plastic sports car that was twisting 9600 through the traps at the end of 1320 feet and the best it ran was with the magneto locked and the initial timing set at 44 degrees. Granted it had a ton of camshaft and we were dropping the hammer at 4000 coming off the line but the point being that the timing I am seeing in this van is seriously deficient for optimum performance in any kind of small block. Understand I am not talking about taking it street racing but it really needs to be better tuned just to properly pull the weight it is designed to carry.

I plan to contact Black Bear with the information I have and see what they say.

 

[L31MaxExpress]

the 0411 will increase the redline from the hardware limited 5500rpm in the blackboxes, inprove mid-band driveability AND let you (re)program your shift points so there is a benefit to upgrading to one even in a stock configuration. HOWEVER while the 0411 and new connector kits are cheap, the reprogramming (either by the owner if they don't already own software or by a shop) is relatively expensive.

Black box is not hardware limited to 5,600 rpm. I have one reving easily 6,500 now.

 

[L31MaxExpress]

OK I pulled a plug to get a tdc mark. Cut a hole in the top of the bellhousing and paint marked a tooth on the flywheel for a registration point. I now know what is happening I just don't know why. The engine is idling with about 20 degrees of timing, I am giving each tooth on the ring gear a value of 2 degrees which is probably not exact but it is close enough for my purposes. You put the trans in gear and power brake it and the timing starts backing down. At about half throttle the timing is around 6 to 8 degrees. Now if you are correct in your assessment I would have to say that it may be normal computer programming but it is not how engines run. I have put a lot of small blocks in a lot of engine compartments and I can say without reservation that the engine in my van needs 20 to 25 degrees coming off idle for optimum performance and with a compression ratio of probably 8.5 to 9, 30 degrees will not do any damage or cause any ping with regular gas at 1000 to 1500 rpm. So if this ECM is working as General Menace programmed it to, it needs some serious help.
I once had a 300 inch small block with Hillborn port injection and 11.0 compression in a plastic sports car that was twisting 9600 through the traps at the end of 1320 feet and the best it ran was with the magneto locked and the initial timing set at 44 degrees. Granted it had a ton of camshaft and we were dropping the hammer at 4000 coming off the line but the point being that the timing I am seeing in this van is seriously deficient for optimum performance in any kind of small block. Understand I am not talking about taking it street racing but it really needs to be better tuned just to properly pull the weight it is designed to carry.

I plan to contact Black Bear with the information I have and see what they say.

I am telling you, I have tried it and it will knock/ping itself to death. Its 9.4:1 and probably more with the carbon buildup.

On 87 octane under load, your timing will need to be about 6° @ 1,200, 12° @ 2,000, 20° @ 2,800, 24° @ 3,200, and 26° @ 3,600+ for peak performance. Iron heads, 9.5:1 compression and a cam with a 191° @ 0.050 intake duration on a 111 LSA has the dynamic compression ratio pushing the limits of pump gas. Add to it the fast burn style chambers of the Vortecs and the end result is the timing advance is not like a 60s engine.

 

[L31MaxExpress]

This is what I ran on 93 octane with my 350 powered Express van. You can clearly see at times mine would still detonate as shown by the knock retard in the datalog screen shot.

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[oldguy44]

I am telling you, I have tried it and it will knock/ping itself to death. Its 9.4:1 and probably more with the carbon buildup.

On 87 octane under load, your timing will need to be about 6° @ 1,200, 12° @ 2,000, 20° @ 2,800, 24° @ 3,200, and 26° @ 3,600+ for peak performance. Iron heads, 9.5:1 compression and a cam with a 191° @ 0.050 intake duration on a 111 LSA has the dynamic compression ratio pushing the limits of pump gas. Add to it the fast burn style chambers of the Vortecs and the end result is the timing advance is not like a 60s engine.

My guess is that you were jacking timing into a good running engine trying to get it to run better. I am well aware that it doesn't work. Been there done that have the burned pistons to prove it. I am talking about an engine that runs like **** and needs a lot of help just to get to OK. The way my van runs now there is a lot of room for improvement before I get into the danger zone. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if I put you in the drivers seat you would totally agree.

I understand the tightrope. When I put the L83 and the 6L80 in my 63 Pontiac the remote tuner I use got me probably 50 to 60 HP over the bench tune by backing down the timing and tweaking the injectors and it went from wow to scary. My whole point is that my engine is running like garbage and needs help to get to OK and everyone seems to think that it is OK and I am trying to get to great. I absolutely know the difference. Oh by the way the LT is still running on 87 with 11:1 compression, and occasionally scaring the Hell out of an unsuspecting Mustang owner.

 

[BeXtreme]

My guess is that you were jacking timing into a good running engine trying to get it to run better. I am well aware that it doesn't work. Been there done that have the burned pistons to prove it. I am talking about an engine that runs like **** and needs a lot of help just to get to OK. The way my van runs now there is a lot of room for improvement before I get into the danger zone. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that if I put you in the drivers seat you would totally agree.

I understand the tightrope. When I put the L83 and the 6L80 in my 63 Pontiac the remote tuner I use got me probably 50 to 60 HP over the bench tune by backing down the timing and tweaking the injectors and it went from wow to scary. My whole point is that my engine is running like garbage and needs help to get to OK and everyone seems to think that it is OK and I am trying to get to great. I absolutely know the difference. Oh by the way the LT is still running on 87 with 11:1 compression, and occasionally scaring the Hell out of an unsuspecting Mustang owner.

I think you are misunderstanding what people are saying here. We are saying that the stock motor should be "ok" as-is with the black box. If it isn't "ok" in stock form with the black box, then you have something wrong. If you don't fix what you have wrong now, changing to a different PCM isn't going to fix that(and is actually likely to make it worse). Once you get the actual issue fixed, then you should be able to tune it to better than "ok" with the 0411 swap just fine.