2 WD front end alignment

[RichLo]

could you temporarily lift it or lower it, get it aligned then bring it back to the ride height you have now giving you negative camber? Or would that give you more positive camber? If you do this, be halfway scientific and get a magnetic angle gauge to stick to your wheel to know how much lift you need to get negative camber.

 

[sewlow]

"He said you just need to slow down, I said, yea, thats not guna happen. I'm almost 60 years old, and I have always driven like that."

Lol! Me too! Drive it like it's stolen!
A redline a day keeps the carbon away!
If you don't go looking for the limit, how are you supposed to know where it is?
But like outlawten5 says...take the truck into a shop that knows & understands track cars.
The guys I go to set up the front end according to my driving habits. Because I 'tend' (hehe!) to toss a vehicle through the twisties, they'll set it up with more negative camber than stock spec in order to place the tires at a better angle to the road, transmitting the forces through the vertical plane of the tire rather than through the shear force across it.
Another reason for negative camber is that a rubber tire is pulled to one side of its rim while cornering. The inside edge of the contact patch would begin to lift off of the ground if the tire had zero camber, reducing the area of the contact patch. This effect is compensated for by applying negative camber, maximizing the contact patch area.
When I've had my truck's set up as according to stock spec, the outside edges of the tires, because of my driving habits, end up being worn away much sooner than the rest of the tire's tread.
Caster angle will compensate this to a degree too, which I always ask to be set to be as much as possible.
That caster angle will make the vehicle want to come back to center naturally. Although, it does make the steering feel somewhat heavier, which I actually prefer. That also helps to overcome some of the over-boost from the power-steering which these trucks suffer from. There are other ways to reduce that over-boost, too, through the modifying of the pump`s pressure flow spring.
The guys I use also take into account camber thrust/camber force, Akermann angles & bump steer characteristics.
Wider tires also require slightly more toe-in due to the increased drag that a wider tire creates.
When a vehicle is on the alignment rack, when the adjustments are all done, it is actually out of alignment & it's not until the vehicle is rolling & those road forces come into play that it is aligned properly.
Stock spec is for a vehicle is just that. Stock for a non-modified vehicle for non-demanding non-enthusiast driver. Throw in wider tires, an aggressive driver & those factory specs merely become a suggestion. A basic starting point.
With my trucks, add in a lowered stance, larger sway bars, stiffer shocks, me driving & stock spec just isn't going to cut it.
As far as the actual numbers dialed in for my trucks, I leave that up to the tech. But they 'get it'. Along with the fact that I kinda sorta understand the geometry, what affects what handling-wise (oversteer/understeer, etc.) & that I can relay that to them, makes them all that more diligent in getting it right.
They're not just going by the book & doing what the computer is telling them to, for a stock vehicle with a basic commuter droid driver.
The techs at Joe-Average alignment shop only go by the book. Thinking outside the box requires knowledge that most just don't know or understand. The computer says "Do this", so that's what they do. They don't have to understand cause & effect. They believe that any deviation from the book & their liability becomes an issue.
If I was to to go to one of those places straight from my guy's shop, they'd say that the whole set-up was whack. If I was to get them to set it up the way I want, they'd either just outright refuse, or be pulling their hair out trying to wrap their head around understanding the concepts.

 

[kennythewelder]

could you temporarily lift it or lower it, get it aligned then bring it back to the ride height you have now giving you negative camber? Or would that give you more positive camber? If you do this, be halfway scientific and get a magnetic angle gauge to stick to your wheel to know how much lift you need to get negative camber.

I found a shop close that will give me some negitive camber. Maybe 1/2 a degree or so. I will go next week. I will post once its done and let everyone konw whats up. Thanks for all of the input guys.

 

[kennythewelder]

"He said you just need to slow down, I said, yea, thats not guna happen. I'm almost 60 years old, and I have always driven like that."

Lol! Me too! Drive it like it's stolen!
A redline a day keeps the carbon away!
If you don't go looking for the limit, how are you supposed to know where it is?
But like outlawten5 says...take the truck into a shop that knows & understands track cars.
The guys I go to set up the front end according to my driving habits. Because I 'tend' (hehe!) to toss a vehicle through the twisties, they'll set it up with more negative camber than stock spec in order to place the tires at a better angle to the road, transmitting the forces through the vertical plane of the tire rather than through the shear force across it.
Another reason for negative camber is that a rubber tire is pulled to one side of its rim while cornering. The inside edge of the contact patch would begin to lift off of the ground if the tire had zero camber, reducing the area of the contact patch. This effect is compensated for by applying negative camber, maximizing the contact patch area.
When I've had my truck's set up as according to stock spec, the outside edges of the tires, because of my driving habits, end up being worn away much sooner than the rest of the tire's tread.
Caster angle will compensate this to a degree too, which I always ask to be set to be as much as possible.
That caster angle will make the vehicle want to come back to center naturally. Although, it does make the steering feel somewhat heavier, which I actually prefer. That also helps to overcome some of the over-boost from the power-steering which these trucks suffer from. There are other ways to reduce that over-boost, too, through the modifying of the pump`s pressure flow spring.
The guys I use also take into account camber thrust/camber force, Akermann angles & bump steer characteristics.
Wider tires also require slightly more toe-in due to the increased drag that a wider tire creates.
When a vehicle is on the alignment rack, when the adjustments are all done, it is actually out of alignment & it's not until the vehicle is rolling & those road forces come into play that it is aligned properly.
Stock spec is for a vehicle is just that. Stock for a non-modified vehicle for non-demanding non-enthusiast driver. Throw in wider tires, an aggressive driver & those factory specs merely become a suggestion. A basic starting point.
With my trucks, add in a lowered stance, larger sway bars, stiffer shocks, me driving & stock spec just isn't going to cut it.
As far as the actual numbers dialed in for my trucks, I leave that up to the tech. But they 'get it'. Along with the fact that I kinda sorta understand the geometry, what affects what handling-wise (oversteer/understeer, etc.) & that I can relay that to them, makes them all that more diligent in getting it right.
They're not just going by the book & doing what the computer is telling them to, for a stock vehicle with a basic commuter droid driver.
The techs at Joe-Average alignment shop only go by the book. Thinking outside the box requires knowledge that most just don't know or understand. The computer says "Do this", so that's what they do. They don't have to understand cause & effect. They believe that any deviation from the book & their liability becomes an issue.
If I was to to go to one of those places straight from my guy's shop, they'd say that the whole set-up was whack. If I was to get them to set it up the way I want, they'd either just outright refuse, or be pulling their hair out trying to wrap their head around understanding the concepts.

Excelent explanation. Thats where my thoughts are. The alignment need to be set for my lead foot, WOT kind of driving. I know it can be done. Its just a matter of finding the rite place, people to do it. The older these trucks get, the harded that becomes.

 

[outlawten5]

Actually sounds to me like these "alignment guys" are of the set the toe and let it go types. Lazy. . every camber adjustment requires another caster sweep. Then finish with a toe adjustment. None of the techs I worked with liked doing alignments, I did them all and cashed in. These are very easy trucks to align. No shims

 

[kennythewelder]

Actually sounds to me like these "alignment guys" are of the set the toe and let it go types. Lazy. . every camber adjustment requires another caster sweep. Then finish with a toe adjustment.

Could be. Kind of like sewlow said. Set it to factory specs and forget it. Called a few shops that wanted my to just drop off the truck and come get it once they are done. No I dont think so. I need to be there. If they cant set it to a custom spec, then forget it. No need to go to factory specs. I already know this doesnt work.

 

[arrg]

Can these trucks even be adjusted to a negative camber angle while keeping a descent amount of caster? How much adjustment do those alignment bolts provide on a stock suspension?

 

[outlawten5]

A perfect alignment will always wear the outer edge. Simple geometry. That's why tire rotation in recommended every other oil change. I would ask the last shop who aligned your truck to re check it. And demand a print out.

 

[outlawten5]

Can these trucks even be adjusted to a negative camber angle while keeping a descent amount of caster? How much adjustment do those alignment bolts provide on a stock suspension?

Easily. If I had access to a good rack I would increase the caster as well. Ever drive a Mercedes down the freeway. You don't even need to hold the wheel

 

[sewlow]

Have to have the knock-outs punched to be able to even start messing with the front end.

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