411 Swap

oldguy44 said:

I have given up on the 411 swap. Apparently the engine trans combo that I have is unique and if there is a pinout sheet for my van I have not found it. So if I get into it and have trouble there is probably no where to go to find help. Unfortunately my go to guy for tuning can tune the 411 to whatever I need and I know it would be one of the best running 4.3's around however he can not fix the black box. I have forwarded what I have found to Black bear to see what they think.

To be clear I am not trying to get to better than OK I would be happy with OK. If great is a 10 and OK is a 7 0r 8 I am at around a 3 0r 4.

I am well aware that I have a problem and telling me I have a problem is accomplishing nothing. I have been emailing back and forth with Andy who, no offence intended, probably knows more about how an ecm should respond than most ever will, agrees that in no world the timing backing down under the circumstances that it is can be considered correct. So just telling me that I have a problem does no good. Where do I start looking? If the accursed distributor were not computer controlled I would have fixed the problem a long time ago and we would not be having this discussion.

I am approaching 80 and for close to 70 of those years I have been around cars in one capacity or another so here is what I know to be correct.

The problem is not fuel delivery, that would show up on the plug read.
The problem is not misfire or? I would recognize that in a heartbeat.
The problem is ignition timing. I do not care if spark is controlled by points, hall effect, magnetic induction, ECM or little green men from mars, there is no way under normal operating conditions ignition timing should be backing down on the surface streets. Yes under full throttle conditions depending on circumstances the knock sensor will retard timing. This is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about stoplight to stoplight, low engine load, low throttle opening, high intake manifold vacuum. These parameters will not trigger Ping unless the timing is outrageously advanced which I have already determined is not the case. Under those conditions the timing should remain stable or advance with RPM's but never retard.

So if someone can tell me why this phenomenon is occurring please enlighten me, but don't keep telling me that I have a problem I know I do. Tell me where to look.

I know that things were weird in the 70's to 90's as the industry was desperately trying to comply with emission standards, particularly in California. The 49 state and California engines, so it is not totally out of reason if I find that this is an emissions thing which if it is a good tune on the black box is all that is needed.

My only hope in that case is that Black Bear really does know what they are doing as they seem to be the only game in town.

Click to expand...

oldguy44 said:

I have given up on the 411 swap. Apparently the engine trans combo that I have is unique and if there is a pinout sheet for my van I have not found it. So if I get into it and have trouble there is probably no where to go to find help. Unfortunately my go to guy for tuning can tune the 411 to whatever I need and I know it would be one of the best running 4.3's around however he can not fix the black box. I have forwarded what I have found to Black bear to see what they think.

To be clear I am not trying to get to better than OK I would be happy with OK. If great is a 10 and OK is a 7 0r 8 I am at around a 3 0r 4.

I am well aware that I have a problem and telling me I have a problem is accomplishing nothing. I have been emailing back and forth with Andy who, no offence intended, probably knows more about how an ecm should respond than most ever will, agrees that in no world the timing backing down under the circumstances that it is can be considered correct. So just telling me that I have a problem does no good. Where do I start looking? If the accursed distributor were not computer controlled I would have fixed the problem a long time ago and we would not be having this discussion.

I am approaching 80 and for close to 70 of those years I have been around cars in one capacity or another so here is what I know to be correct.

The problem is not fuel delivery, that would show up on the plug read.
The problem is not misfire or? I would recognize that in a heartbeat.
The problem is ignition timing. I do not care if spark is controlled by points, hall effect, magnetic induction, ECM or little green men from mars, there is no way under normal operating conditions ignition timing should be backing down on the surface streets. Yes under full throttle conditions depending on circumstances the knock sensor will retard timing. This is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about stoplight to stoplight, low engine load, low throttle opening, high intake manifold vacuum. These parameters will not trigger Ping unless the timing is outrageously advanced which I have already determined is not the case. Under those conditions the timing should remain stable or advance with RPM's but never retard.

So if someone can tell me why this phenomenon is occurring please enlighten me, but don't keep telling me that I have a problem I know I do. Tell me where to look.

I know that things were weird in the 70's to 90's as the industry was desperately trying to comply with emission standards, particularly in California. The 49 state and California engines, so it is not totally out of reason if I find that this is an emissions thing which if it is a good tune on the black box is all that is needed.

My only hope in that case is that Black Bear really does know what they are doing as they seem to be the only game in town.

Click to expand...

oldguy44 said:

I have been under the hood for over 65 years and the underlying problem is that it is late on the timing until about 2000 +. You can hear it in the engine sound. it is hitting on all 6 I replaced the spider with the newer style, new cap rotor wires and plugs no help. I will guarantee that it just needs more timing. If it did not have a computer controlled distributor I could easily fix it but tweaking and peaking computers is totally out of my wheelhouse. If there is an easier way to fix it I am all for it. The guy who does all my remote tuning can't do anything with the original ECM which is where the idea of a 411 swap started. If someone knows how I can get about 10 or so degrees into the timing from 0 to about 2000 it will fix my problem. It has no CEL so my assumption is that all sensors are within proper range
In a nutshell that is my underlying problem, poor programming from the factory which I assume was their quick fix to lowering the nitrous oxides coming out of the tailpipe. The catalytic converter took care of the rest but no catalyst to drop NOX. Back in the 90's as memory serves me their were still 49 state and California cars. This is a California engine which if I am correct explains a lot. Out here on the left coast in the Peoples Republic of California the popular opinion in Sacramento is that if it works correctly their must be something wrong with it so we will make it illegal.
Short version, if someone knows of an easier fix I am open to any suggestion.

Click to expand...

BeXtreme said:

You might not have an "actual" problem with the engine. I have now made at least two posts where myself and others have told you exactly what to look for.

The PCM can be causing this to happen because it LOOKS like you have a problem(to the PCM) when one doesn't actually exist. That's what we have been trying to tell you.

You need to get an OBDII reader and look at what the PCM is actually seeing. You keep looking at this from the perspective of old engines. In some ways it doesn't matter if you hear ping, or the plugs are reading correctly, or the gauge shows the right coolant temp. If the PCM is being told that the manifold pressure is zero, its going to think you are under a heavy load. If the PCM is seeing a bunch of knock events, it is going to pull timing regardless of whether that is a real event or not that you are feeling in the drivers seat. You need to see what the PCM is actually seeing that is causing it to pull timing.

I would start by looking at the actual health of the engine(which you seam to have done already). Pull the plugs and inspect them. Perform a compression and leakdown test on all cylinders. Then run the engine with a vacuum gauge on it and see if it is pulling a good steady vacuum reading at idle. If all of that comes back good, then you need to make sure that what the PCM is seeing matches those readings. Make sure MAP reading matches the vacuum reading you physically measured. Make sure CTS reading is consistent with the actual engine coolant temp. Make sure you don't have ANY knock events. Make sure the TPS sensor reading is a reasonable number and doesn't have any dead spots.

Click to expand...

bentwrenches said:

"New parts"... real quality, name brand parts, or box-store, fleece Bay, or any other kind of chi-ti-waunese generic massively reproduced specials?

Click to expand...

oldguy44 said:

I do apologize. If this information was previously offered I certainly missed it. All I kept seeing was you can't put more timing in it which I have positively determined is what it needs.
OK back to the problem. Now I need to figure out how to use my obdlink mx +. I got it when we were setting up the LT in my Indian, for what reason I don't remember, and have never used it since. Been lucky that all the cars have been behaving. I am assuming that there is a users manual on line somewhere. I plugged it in and the information it seems to be giving me is sketchy at best.

Click to expand...

oldguy44 said:

is there another kind on the market? The last I knew it was almost impossible to get a crankshaft from SCAT because there is a delay in getting crank cores from................you guessed it China. I have lost track of how many parts I have picked up from my local parts house with a US supplier's logo on the box with made in China in small letters somewhere on the box. Without getting into politics it is impossible for an American manufacturer to manufacture in the US anymore because of taxes and labor costs. Welcome to the world economy.

Click to expand...