fighting a steering problem i cant find

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dusterbd13

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truck: 1995 c1500 reg cab short bed.
lowered: 5/7
Parts used to lower: DJM lowering spindles (2 inch), DJM lower control arms (2inch) belltech coils (1 inch). rear flip kit, overload leaf removed. has firestone ride right airbags in the back for trailer towing duty. DJM shock extenders.

suspension (other): Bilstein shocks. moog pitman arm, idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends, idler arm bracket. rockauto complete upper control arm assemblies. ZQ8 cardone steering box. new rag joint. new power steering hoses. old power steering pump of unknown age.

wheels and tires: 1.25 thick front adapters, 1.5 thick rear. 2012 camaro steel 18 inch wheels, 255/55/18 Michelin runflat tires.

aligned to factory spec for the 1995 c1500 (4x now, by 3 different shops)

all suspension components have less than 5,000 miles on them.

problems:
play at center of steering. about 1.5 inch either way from center.
stiff steering (abnormally stiff)
memory steering/wont return to center except manually
very darty/wandering al over the road, requiring extreme attention to stay in the lane, bordering on uncontrollable on narrow roads with sharper turns (45mph posted speed limit, doing 35)

the truck is all but undrivable at this point, and cannot pull the race car. or go to lowes. or go to church. or....

I have been chasing my tail at this point, and feel like I have to be missing something.
in the past 1k of diagnostics, with the truck getting markedly worse, I have:
replaced steering box 3 times
replaced all 4 tie rod ends, pitman arm, center link, idler arm, idler arm bracket, rebuilt rag joint, changed toe, changed tire pressures, changed load bag pressures, greased, and pulled the tie rods and manually worked the spindles to check for ball joint sticking.

im stumped. I haven't made hardly any change at this point in the behavior. ive GOT to be missing something here, but have no idea what. so please, help me out here. my last grasp at this is to think that the ball joints are sticking with the weight of the truck on them, but check fine at droop. but, that seems absolutely preposterous.
 

delta_p

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From the way you describe it sounds like it is in the power steering. From all the new parts and the new gear box it doesn't sound like the gear box is adjusted too tight because it would normally feel tight near the center wheel point and break loose beyond. The 1.5 inch play seems normal to me.

Sounds a little like no power steering. I wonder if the power steering pump is putting out good pressure? Inside the gear box pump feed port is a little check valve to provide some pump back pressure. if that check valve isn't opening proper, it will reduce the pressure in the box as a restriction. probably not likely but is something to think about if you don't find anything else.

https://www.camaros.net/forums/16-b...-steering-box-check-valve-removal-photos.html
 

dusterbd13

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I wonder if i hold a lower gear, thereby spinning the pump fastrr and generating more pressure and volume woulf make a difference ? Is that a valid trst idea?
 

someotherguy

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Man...I really don't have any direct input on the steering issue but when I saw your front setup it concerns me. A 5" drop is much better done with 2" spindles and 3" springs. Combining drop spindles and drop lower arms puts your scrub line way low and is not recommended at all. I know other people have done it, doesn't mean it's the right way.

It may sound nutty but if it was a truck I had personally bought already built that way I would be pulling those arms and springs out and selling them to someone that could use them, and putting 3" springs in to get the same drop, correctly. Then I'd start chasing the steering issue...

Richard
 

delta_p

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I wonder if i hold a lower gear, thereby spinning the pump fastrr and generating more pressure and volume woulf make a difference ? Is that a valid trst idea?

So let's think of it like this and looking at the picture of the pump in that link. The discharge fitting is the seal of the valve, and there is a little tiny orifice in the side of the fitting too tied to the pump vanes discharge area. If the valve is sticking closed (not allowing much bypass back to pump inlet path) and the pump speed is high, the output from pump vanes should be loading up pressure against the little tiny orifice in the side of the discharge fitting. The pressure drop across that orifice is going to be high and that orifice is the primary path going to the steering gear along with any tiny opening of the valve at the end of the fitting. So if it is sticking closed I would suspect it would cut the amount of pressure to the gear and it would be hard to steer.


I have never heard of these sticking, it's a fairly simple valve but I am just noting places that could limit the gear pressure available to provide power assist. And the check valve in the gear probably not the culprit because the pressures involved are really very high in relation to that check valve spring force.
 

dusterbd13

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Man...I really don't have any direct input on the steering issue but when I saw your front setup it concerns me. A 5" drop is much better done with 2" spindles and 3" springs. Combining drop spindles and drop lower arms puts your scrub line way low and is not recommended at all. I know other people have done it, doesn't mean it's the right way.

It may sound nutty but if it was a truck I had personally bought already built that way I would be pulling those arms and springs out and selling them to someone that could use them, and putting 3" springs in to get the same drop, correctly. Then I'd start chasing the steering issue...

Richard

I understand your concern completely. Scrub line on these would be dangerously unsafe with anything smaller than 18s. With an 18-inch wheel I have roughly 3 in between the lowest point of the control arm and the dirt on a bare steel wheel. I have admittedly given thought to going back to stock control arms and shorter Springs so I can run 15in Wheels safely. However that's a decision for after it's fixed.
 

dusterbd13

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So let's think of it like this and looking at the picture of the pump in that link. The discharge fitting is the seal of the valve, and there is a little tiny orifice in the side of the fitting too tied to the pump vanes discharge area. If the valve is sticking closed (not allowing much bypass back to pump inlet path) and the pump speed is high, the output from pump vanes should be loading up pressure against the little tiny orifice in the side of the discharge fitting. The pressure drop across that orifice is going to be high and that orifice is the primary path going to the steering gear along with any tiny opening of the valve at the end of the fitting. So if it is sticking closed I would suspect it would cut the amount of pressure to the gear and it would be hard to steer.


I have never heard of these sticking, it's a fairly simple valve but I am just noting places that could limit the gear pressure available to provide power assist. And the check valve in the gear probably not the culprit because the pressures involved are really very high in relation to that check valve spring force.
Good logic there. And it makes sense that if the wheels are easy enough to turn at idle, it should have enough at faster speeds. Right?
 

delta_p

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at low pump speed the valve won't need to open because it isn't moving much fluid fast, the pressure will be high about 400 psi and the passages will allow the necessary volume to the gear like when parking lot manuvers, taking a turn at a red light. At cruising the pump speed is high and the output volume is high, but the demand from the gear is low because your not turning much, so the valve needs to open to allow the fluid volume output to route back and recycle through the pump. If the valve doesn't open for this it should cause heating the fluid, you might hear some pump noise from high velocity fluid traveling across very small orifices, and the "even though small" volume demand from the gear may actually be enough the orifice can't acommodate without too little pressure to the gear.

If at idle, you turn the wheel and suddenly it goes from easy to hard, there may be output restrictions from the valve or leaking around the valve. Try reving it up to like 2000 rpm to provide pressure and see if it gets easy to turn again. if so, fix the pump. if you can make it get easy by reving then it is the pressure not the steering components.
 

sewlow

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A 5" drop is much better done with 2" spindles and 3" springs. Combining drop spindles and drop lower arms puts your scrub line way low and is not recommended at all.

Richard

Exactly my thoughts too when I read that.

As far as the wandering, are the 'techs' setting the front end up as according to stock specs?
Stock spec leaves a lot to be desired. Throw in a bunch of mods & some compensation needs to dialed in.
With wider, heavier wheels & tires, these trucks need as much positive castor dialed-in as possible. Setting it up as such will make the truck want to come back to center more readily. This will also give the steering a somewhat heavier feel which will kinda-sorta overcome these truck's over-boosted power steering systems.
Have the camber knock-outs been punched? If not, then the tires are actually riding on their outer edges, leading to that twitchy wandering.
Wider/heavier than stock wheels & tires require a bit more toe-in. When a vehicle is having it's front-end aligned, sitting on the alignment rack, it's actually out of alignment. It's not till it's rolling that it comes into spec. This is due to the drag that the road puts on the components. Adding wider/heavier wheels & that drag is greater than the factory sized T's-n-W's create, consequently pulling the alignment outa whack.
 
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