Gmt400 brakes-master cylinder upgrade, residual valves, disc/drum MC differences. So much confusion.

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Schurkey

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Thread confirms what I said earlier. Seems like everyone has a different experience and different views on how these brakes work and what causes problems. There’s so much variation in these setups it seems that all this conflicting info is right for certain trucks but wrong for others. Weird.
Wait...what are you saying? That there's a lot of bad advice on the Internet? Can't be!

Maybe you should tell us WHAT BRAKES DO YOU HAVE?

What is the RPO code from the glovebox?

Vacuum, or hydraulic power booster?

Duo-Servo, or the ****** leading/trailing shoe drums?

Do you get a good flow of fluid when bleeding the rears?

Have you bled the ABS using the service manual procedure?

What is the master cylinder bore diameter? Is it a Quick Take-Up design? (If this is still the GMT-800 unit, I'm guessing the answer is "no". So if you have low-drag calipers...good luck with it.)

HOW did you bleed the master cylinder?
 

Ryan cin

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Wait...what are you saying? That there's a lot of bad advice on the Internet? Can't be!

Maybe you should tell us WHAT BRAKES DO YOU HAVE?

What is the RPO code from the glovebox?

Vacuum, or hydraulic power booster?

Duo-Servo, or the ****** leading/trailing shoe drums?

Do you get a good flow of fluid when bleeding the rears?

Have you bled the ABS using the service manual procedure?

What is the master cylinder bore diameter? Is it a Quick Take-Up design? (If this is still the GMT-800 unit, I'm guessing the answer is "no". So if you have low-drag calipers...good luck with it.)

HOW did you bleed the master cylinder?

I have JB5 brakes. From what I’ve heard I have the ****** rear drums, not sure what duo servo means. Good fluid flow at all 4 corners when bleeding. Vacuum boost. The master cylinder that I swapped on has a 1 5/16 bore I think. Sounds too big. Don’t think it’s a quick take up design, and i don’t know if I have low drag calipers. C555 and C554 from autozone are currently on the truck. Don’t have a scan tool so I just engage the abs ~10 times then bleed.
 

Ryan cin

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My end goal here is to get my brakes to feel like gmt900 brakes which, I know, is quite the stretch. I don’t understand how vacuum boosted gmt900 brakes can feel so much different than gmt400 brakes.
 

Supercharged111

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My end goal here is to get my brakes to feel like gmt900 brakes which, I know, is quite the stretch. I don’t understand how vacuum boosted gmt900 brakes can feel so much different than gmt400 brakes.

400 vacuum brakes suck period. They can be made to suck less, but that's as good as I was able to get mine.
 

Schurkey

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I have JB5 brakes. From what I’ve heard I have the ****** rear drums, not sure what duo servo means.
JB5 is better than what my '88 K1500 started out with--JB3. You have thicker rotors, bigger vacuum booster, bigger caliper pistons in low-drag calipers, and you had the larger QTU master cylinder. Same ****** 10" (254mm???) leading/trailing rear brakes, though.

I converted my truck to JB5 in front, along with the master cylinder and booster. I put a 6-lug 9.5" semi-float 14-bolt axle in back, with 11" Duo-servo drums. Should be the equivalent to JB6 brakes, now.

The obvious difference between Leading/Trailing and Duo-Servo brakes is that the L/T has the adjuster just under the wheel cylinder at the top, and the shoes are anchored at the bottom. Duo-Servo has the anchor pin at the top, and the adjuster is a floating link between the shoes at the bottom.

L/T brakes have ONE shoe on each side that does almost all the stopping--which is why the front shoe on both sides is the one with most of the wear once the miles pile up. The rear shoe does most of the braking when you back up. Most folks don't back-up at highway speed, though, so the rear shoe stays pretty pristine. Duo-Servo uses the friction of the front shoe to cram the rear shoe into the drum extra-hard. Both shoes help stop the vehicle, forward or reverse. As it turns out, the Duo-Servo brakes on these trucks are larger-diameter than the L/T brakes, which also improves stopping power.

Good fluid flow at all 4 corners when bleeding.
If the rear shoes don't stop the drums, either there's no pressure due to a failed master cylinder, air in the system, massive leaks at the wheel cylinders, or the rear shoes aren't adjusted properly. Good fluid flow when bleeding eliminates the possibility of an actual blockage in the hydraulic system.

Given the leading/trailing shoe design, "not adjusted properly" is fairly likely. Yes, I know you're claiming you adjusted them so the drum would barely fit over the shoes. One brake application to align the shoes to the drum, and the adjustment may be way off again.

Air in the system is also a strong possibility.

I don't recall you mentioning that the brake pedal is low and squishy. I'm guessing it is. If you've got a high, firm pedal, I'm gonna be very surprised.

The master cylinder that I swapped on has a 1 5/16 bore I think. Sounds too big. Don’t think it’s a quick take up design, and i don’t know if I have low drag calipers. C555 and C554 from autozone are currently on the truck.
JB5 would have had low-drag calipers requiring a QTU master cylinder having a 1 1/8 bore plus a 40mm QTU piston at the rear. I don't know if the replacement calipers are low-drag, but it's very likely if they're spec-ed for a low-drag application.

40mm is larger than an inch and a half. Moves a whole lot more fluid than a 1 5/16 piston. Exactly what's needed to push the caliper pistons up to the rotor faces. Then the 1 1/8 bore supplies higher-pressure fluid than the 1 5/16 can provide, leading to stronger stopping power.

Don’t have a scan tool so I just engage the abs ~10 times then bleed.
That "should" work. At least, I'm told that it does. I'm not sure that I believe it, though.

I'm wondering if your ABS valves for the REAR brakes are not activating because the rear brakes don't work (don't lock up) and the ABS for the REAR brakes is therefore still full of air. The ABS is working for the front brakes, but not the rear.

If your truck was in MY driveway, it'd get the correct master cylinder, properly bench-bled; and a scan-tool bleeding of the ABS. And then, I'd pull the drums and verify the adjustment AGAIN.

For the record, the AC-Delco "Professional" master cylinder you need is a Made-In-China knockoff. I was VERY disappointed. I was in a time-crunch, I used it, but if I had to do it over again, I'd look around for a USA-sourced master cylinder. (It may be that there is no such thing.)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DRLC1K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
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Pinger

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JB5 would have had low-drag calipers requiring a QTU master cylinder having a 1 1/8 bore plus a 40mm QTU piston at the rear. I don't know if the replacement calipers are low-drag, but it's very likely if they're spec-ed for a low-drag application.

40mm is larger than an inch and a half. Moves a whole lot more fluid than a 1 5/16 piston. Exactly what's needed to push the caliper pistons up to the rotor faces. Then the 1 1/8 bore supplies higher-pressure fluid than the 1 5/16 can provide, leading to stronger stopping power.

Does the JD7 system (1999 C2500 Suburban 5.7) have the above?
 

Schurkey

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Does the JD7 system (1999 C2500 Suburban 5.7) have the above?
No.

You've got larger-diameter (12.5" instead of 11.5") rotors, way bigger calipers without the low-drag feature, a non-QTU master cylinder, Hydroboost instead of vacuum boost, and big (13" instead of 10-inch/254mm) Duo-Servo rear drums.

Master cylinder seems to be a 1 1/4" unit.

Same as my '97 K2500, but WAY different from my '88 K1500.
 
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Ryan cin

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I don't recall you mentioning that the brake pedal is low and squishy. I'm guessing it is. If you've got a high, firm pedal, I'm gonna be very surprised.

You guessed right!


JB5 would have had low-drag calipers requiring a QTU master cylinder having a 1 1/8 bore plus a 40mm QTU piston at the rear. I don't know if the replacement calipers are low-drag, but it's very likely if they're spec-ed for a low-drag application.

40mm is larger than an inch and a half. Moves a whole lot more fluid than a 1 5/16 piston. Exactly what's needed to push the caliper pistons up to the rotor faces. Then the 1 1/8 bore supplies higher-pressure fluid than the 1 5/16 can provide, leading to stronger stopping power.

So does this completely debunk everything about the praised “NBS Master” upgrade? To me, it sounds like there’s no suitable master cylinder except for the one made for these trucks, and for the gmt800 master swap to work, we’d need a QTU master cylinder designed for front disc/rear drum. Does that part even exist? Thinking I’m going to try a new OEM master that’s actually designed for my truck.
 

Ryan cin

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Given the leading/trailing shoe design, "not adjusted properly" is fairly likely. Yes, I know you're claiming you adjusted them so the drum would barely fit over the shoes. One brake application to align the shoes to the drum, and the adjustment may be way off again.

So I do have the ****** drums. Any way to fix the issue of them getting thrown out of adjustment? Now that you mention it, the brake pedal does feel softer after hard shopping a few times
 
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