Braded steel brake lines

[Moparmat2000]

2 different cover seals. First one is what my truck came with. There are no moveable bladders in the seal , so as the fluid moves down in the reservoir it will create a vacuum unless its somehow vented to relieve the vacuum. The second one has moveable bladders and is for a much older truck. Probably fits the same but has bladders that can move down as the fluid moves down in the reservoir without creating a vacuum.

How would you use the upper gasket shown and not create a vacuum since its flat. I would be willing to bet without the upper gasket being vented to atmospheric with a small strategic pinhole punched in it as the factory has done, the gasket will eventually want to suck inside the master cylinder reservoir on the sides and break seal.

Gasket in pic #2 might be a better design, or not. What was GMs reasoning behind abandoning it, and going with the flat seal starting in 1988 ? Was it better? Or cheaper to produce with less manufacturing rejects and still perform the same basic function? My bet is on cheaper to produce with less manufacturing defects. Any time a manufacturer changes something like that, its usually done as a cost savings thing, since the average buyer could care less about something like that as long as it works. Now i dont intend to go to my local chevy dealer to spend $25 or more on a new gasket for my 94 to prove to you that the new one will have a hole in it from the factory as well.

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[Ken K]

Don't know all master cylinder caps or seals, just going by the average of 3,300 vehicles I have service each year for 29 years. But I didn't look at each of their caps either. I was told that in the late 90's, that at GM, the Chevy guys, would not eat in the cafeteria when the Cadillac guys where in the room. Same with Pontiac, Buick and the rest. So, what's this mean, engineers had their own idea of what each part should look like, function and be made of. Don't understand why the seal would have a hole in it and never will. But, I did build it, sell it or buy it. I would accept what is on it, change it or service it more often because DOT 3 brake fluid is hydroscopic and the moisture content effects the boiling point of this fluid and how it preforms. That's all. Change it by flushing more often.

Who knows, maybe the engineer retired in 84 and the new guy hired in 86 made his design. I have seen things better and sometimes worse, when it comes to design and engineering. Ever work on a "Quad 4"?

 

[Moparmat2000]

Would you agree that the seal in pic #1 would eventually create a vacuum and possibly pull in breaking its seal if not vented since it doesnt have dual bladders moulded into it ?

I would venture to say most people servicing these vehicles with the flat master cylinder seal probably dont even realize theres a vent hole punched in it for this purpose.

Cant say that i have worked on a quad 4. I would think certain stuff would have been standard parts bin fare like master cylinder caps, seals etc. A lot of stuff is also driven by bean counters cutting to increase the bottom line.

Cant be any other reason why the door hinges on these are welded to the door and body otherwise, except for less screws and nut plates in the vehicle, robot welded hinges need no adjustments, just whack the pins and bushings in with a hammer, and its lined up perfectly. Less parts, less labor, faster production, better consistency in the product. All for a better bottom line.

 

[Brody]

Ok cool. Makes sense. I tried to install them with what they came with. Not happy about the looseness. My spring clips are in good shape, i will stick those back in and remove the E clips. I think the hex is there just to tighten the hard lines B nut without the flex line turning. I think the stock flex lines have a flat index on them so they dont turn in the bracket. I could be wrong about that though.

I will get more pix after i hook up the A arm brackets and make sure the lines still have enough slack.

Quick question, have you had any issues with the hard line, hard nut B nut turning or freeplay, or the sort?

I've installed the braided Russell 672340 brake hose kit today on my '98 C3500 - and was worried because the OEM hoses seat into the HEX relief (in the brackets), whereas the Russell 672340 do not.
With the spring clips reinstalled, there is very slight movement with force of the brake hose and hard line as a whole. Haven't tried ramming the e-clip on the hose side of the bracket as well.

Do all C1500, C2500 and C3500's have a HEX relief in the brackets?

Thanks!

 

[Moparmat2000]

I believe the brackets all are hex indexed to prevent the OEM flex line from turning when tightening the B nut on the assembly line. I used the E clip, and installed the spring clip in the small space between the E clip and the bracket. I got it started, the tapped it in place w a hammer. Its pretty tight, but stops if lt from being sloppy. Just use a wrench on the russel hose end to keep it from turning so it doesnt twist when tightening the hard line B nut. The braded lines have a lay line drawn on them to install them without twisting. Keep that in mind when plumbing them in.

 

[Brody]

No worries at all, I will give it a go and shimmy it with the e-clip. Appreciate the advice!

 

[Moparmat2000]

Well i was gonna finish this up this weekend, but went home from work early friday feeling sick. Either i had a stomach bug, or food poisoning. Was miserable. Still am miserable. At least the turbo puke and turbo **** stopped. But i still have a massive pounding headache. If i feel better sunday, i'm gonna put the rear line on , bleed the system , and get this done.

 

[Ken K]

I would certainly agree the the master cylinder cap in picture #1 would create a vacuum as fluid levels drop. As for engineering, to me, it make no sense. If I had this setup and could not find a "Bellows" type seal for the master cylinder, I would go with DOT4 brake fluid. I believe it has a minimum wet boiling point of 363 Degrees F. So, it will perform better with moisture. I find the whole thing strange.
As for welded door hinges, these are stupid as well. With millions of dollars spent on tools to tighten & torque 6 lug nut at the same time, lift the tires onto the vehicle, etc....I would think a UAW worker might break a finger nail if they had to use a hammer to adjust the door. Not cool.

 

[Moparmat2000]

Its all about production line speed and cost savings thru less parts, reduced labor expenses. If they are all robot welded exactly the same, all somebody on the line has to do is add the bushings, pins and springs. Cuts assembly time, less parts used, less involved labor keeps the price down at the dealership level to compete w the competition, increases profits to shareholders. They all work this way.

Another trick is using parts from other vehicles or using those same parts thru a long life cycle. Dodge used bolt on upper and lower door hinges and exterior door handles that were unchanged on their pickups from 1972-1993. Why? It worked and was all pure profit after awhile.

Same lower door hinge on their vans was used on dodge darts from 1967-1976, and on their vans from 1970-2002 when it was replaced by the mercedes sprinter.

Theres a bunch of stuff on GMT400s thats been either parts bin borrowed from something else, or used from GMT400s on something else lol.

Also GM pays crazy legacy costs to retirees. The consumer pays that at the stealership. Its estimated theres $6000-$7000 minimum built into the price of every new GM vehicle sold today to cover GMs legacy costs.

Heres an abbreviated how it works. Johnny goes to work for GM at age 20 putting carpets in buicks on the assembly line. He gets the usual UAW raises yearly and works there 20 years. Then he is eligible for retirement. Johnny is now age 40. He retires and GM provides him with a pension based on his last years salary with the company until he dies. Johnny may live another 40 years and die at age 80. At age 40 johnny takes his GM retirement, and goes and works a different job. Sounds like a gubmint job as a state senator.

When obama claimed to save GM from bankruptcy he ****** up. GM should have went into bankruptcy. They would have declared chapter 7 reorganization, and continued to chug along making cars and trucks. Then everything agreed to with the UAW prior to bankruptcy would have been null and void. At that point GM could have negotiated 401k w maybe some company matching and dumped the pensions.

 

[454cid]

Heres an abbreviated how it works. Johnny goes to work for GM at age 20 putting carpets in buicks on the assembly line. He gets the usual UAW raises yearly and works there 20 years. Then he is eligible for retirement. Johnny is now age 40..

People aren't retiring from GM at 40... don't drag this in a political debate