96 burban calipers upgrade

[michael hurd]

Lots of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. The only good hard evidence was on page 5, the binder listing the different systems, and even then, there wasn't much input from the person that had it in front of them. There is a big difference in the pedal ratio between hydroboost and vacuum booster.

6.32 to 1 for hydroboost and 4.78 to 1 for vacuum.
FE friction code pad material for the front brakes. Primary and secondary brake shoes had different compounds. Most commonly available is FF over the counter for these trucks. ( First letter is cold performance, second hot, higher letter indicates higher friction )

People will spend real money on the powertrain, fixing up the paint, buying new interior pieces and such, but the braking system is oft the most neglected part of a vehicle.

How many times have you seen black brake fluid... in that thread on the other forum linked, at least two of the pictures show black brake fluid. I can go pop the hood on mine outside right now and show you clean, light amber fluid.

ZOMG, wow... I changed out a "failed" component, and put in fresh fluid, and I have AMAZING brakes now, let's call it an upgraded master cylinder!!

 

[michael hurd]

the brakes sucked from GM....and they spent LOTS of money on R&D.....don't you think if this was a viable option for better brakes that General Motors would have done it?

one think i haven't investigated is the police package Tahoe's....usually cop cars have/had upgraded braking systems....i'd check EVERY single part number for THAT system and go from there. maybe they used the J7B setup on the 1/2 ton trucks.

me? i'm converting to complete and proper J6B from J5B on my '98 RCSB, which includes the 14 bolt semi-floater and the CORRECT comp valve.....every part of the SYSTEM will be new too....that is a an upgrade for a 1/2 ton in my opinion, the same setup on the 6 lug light duty 2500......i've also replaced my warped rotors with the EBC dimpled and slotted rotors, i'm using their green pads also, a good setup with a difference that i immediately felt......my brakes were bled correctly too.

Having driven a few of these trucks from new, I have to disagree, the brakes never really 'sucked', they worked as intended. We have had almost 3 decades between launch of this platform and now. In that time, tire companies have spent tens of thousands of man hours researching tire compounds and tire construction. Also, brake compounds have undergone the same research.

Don't forget these trucks were heavier than the predecessors, rolling on essentially the same tires. ( 2wd got 235/75R15's )

Michigan State Police is a good resource for UNBIASED stopping distance, seems every year they tried out various vehicles for police pursuit. 5th wheel speed measurement was used to confirm the actual vehicle speed.

1997 and 1998 PPV Tahoe 60-0 braking distance for sure are in there, I linked before, but will dig up the link.

Here's 1998: https://www.justnet.org/pdf/93468.pdf

173.5 feet, 60-0 first stop.

Take a look at some of the other braking distances on the same chart.

Let's look at some 2015 pickups, shall we?

http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2015/01/2015-light-duty-v-8-challenge-braking.html

Toyota TRD PRO - 159.6 feet
Ram 1500 - 143.7 feet ( 275/60R20 Wrangler SRA's )
GMC 1500 - 138.9 feet ( 275/55R20 Eagle LS2's )
Ford F150 - 139.9 feet ( 275/65R18 Wrangler Fortitude HT )
Chevy 1500 - 133.7 feet ( 275/55R20 Wrangler SRA's )

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

ZOMG, wow... I changed out a "failed" component, and put in fresh fluid, and I have AMAZING brakes now, let's call it an upgraded master cylinder!!

You seem to be taking this a little personal. All you can do is present your facts and hope people take something away from it. No way to win the internet.

IMO, I agree with most of what you say. Brakes are not something to mix and match components willy nilly. Like you have pointed out in this thread you need to make sure you understand hydraulics and how the fluid displacement works. There is a significant liability if you alter something and it fails. Not just legal and financial considerations, but do you want to be the guy that killed a mom and her kids? That said, there is room for modification if you understand the system and do the math. Generally that doesn't seem to be how stuff is presented on this site. I think forum readers need to take everything with a grain of salt and if you lack the technical knowledge or experience proceed with extreme caution. These trucks did stop well with the factory set up, the pedal just feels like crap.

 

[kennythewelder]

People around here are often trying to upgrade there vehicle, thus this forum is an outlet for idea sharing and the stickies address common questions. Some people feel that stock is the best way out of fear IMO. I'm not one of them and don't often interact with them but the 31% number is misleading the DRW calipers are for thicker rotors and larger thicker pads also so I doubt they would be put on a 6 lug truck even by accident 14% is the better number. I've done so much math to decide what route I would go if/when I do something. That said I'd be far more afraid of fault from poorly maintained brakes then brake changes. I'm a mechanic and car nut and as much as I know of cars I wouldn't think that I could identify the difference of calipers without measuring them or having them side by side and 99.9999999999% of the accident investigations won't even look for that. And lastly people spec 1 ton srw calipers because 3/4 ton could be either caliper.

We all have our own opinions, and experience. Some people here believe that if GM uses something then they have put a lot of R&D into it, so it must be be best to replace parts with what is OE. If that was fact, there would be no after market parts. Some after market parts are a lot better than OE and some are not. I have always my been the type of person to customize. There are also people here that think that you must follow every single rule and procedure. I was a mechanic at 2 new car dealers in the late 1970 and I know from my own experience, that is not always the case. All the manufacturers do not want you to work on your own vehicle. If you fix something your self, then they did not make money fixing it for you. I did the GMT 800 MC swap on my truck. The peddle is much better, but IMO the truck still is a little hard to stop, just like it was before. I also slammed my brakes several times to make the ABS engage. IMO the ABS reacts a little more intense than before the swap, but not that much more. I have had other cars and trucks that the ABS was as aggressive or even more so. As for liability, well if you do anything to you vehicle that causes an accident or damage to someone else or there property then you are liable for these damages. In today's world, If you have a fender bender, expect to get sued.

 

[shovelbill]

Having driven a few of these trucks from new, I have to disagree, the brakes never really 'sucked', they worked as intended. We have had almost 3 decades between launch of this platform and now. In that time, tire companies have spent tens of thousands of man hours researching tire compounds and tire construction. Also, brake compounds have undergone the same research.

Don't forget these trucks were heavier than the predecessors, rolling on essentially the same tires. ( 2wd got 235/75R15's )

Michigan State Police is a good resource for UNBIASED stopping distance, seems every year they tried out various vehicles for police pursuit. 5th wheel speed measurement was used to confirm the actual vehicle speed.

1997 and 1998 PPV Tahoe 60-0 braking distance for sure are in there, I linked before, but will dig up the link.

Here's 1998: https://www.justnet.org/pdf/93468.pdf
https://www.justnet.org/pdf/93468.pdf
173.5 feet, 60-0 first stop.

Take a look at some of the other braking distances on the same chart.

Let's look at some 2015 pickups, shall we?

http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2015/01/2015-light-duty-v-8-challenge-braking.html
http://special-reports.pickuptrucks.com/2015/01/2015-light-duty-v-8-challenge-braking.html
Toyota TRD PRO - 159.6 feet
Ram 1500 - 143.7 feet ( 275/60R20 Wrangler SRA's )
GMC 1500 - 138.9 feet ( 275/55R20 Eagle LS2's )
Ford F150 - 139.9 feet ( 275/65R18 Wrangler Fortitude HT )
Chevy 1500 - 133.7 feet ( 275/55R20 Wrangler SRA's )

ok....i'll re-state MY opinion......the brakes on my "new-ta-me" '98 sucked, both in stopping and feel compared to my 1990 K/5.....when i got the pickup it had Firestone Destinations on it, some wear, but in good shape.......the pedal "feel" was horrible compared to my '90.....and if i remember correctly my 1986 GMC Jimmy K/5 stopped well too.......all i've every had were K/5's and some '70'sand '80's GM pickups......my perception is that the '98 is the worst of the bunch........i remember being VERY impressed with my 1978 C20 Camper Special's brakes.....i miss that truck...and it's 2 piece rear drive shaft.

 

[kennythewelder]

ok....i'll re-state MY opinion......the brakes on my "new-ta-me" '98 sucked, both in stopping and feel compared to my 1990 K/5.....when i got the pickup it had Firestone Destinations on it, some wear, but in good shape.......the pedal "feel" was horrible compared to my '90.....and if i remember correctly my 1986 GMC Jimmy K/5 stopped well too.......all i've every had were K/5's and some '70'sand '80's GM pickups......my perception is that the '98 is the worst of the bunch........i remember being VERY impressed with my 1978 C20 Camper Special's brakes.....i miss that truck...and it's 2 piece rear drive shaft.

My 93 WT brakes were much better than my 97 is. When GM went to ABS in 95 or 96, this system sucks. I did the GMT 800 MC swap, and the peddle is much better, but I don't find the truck stops much better than before. Maybe the calipers and,or the pads are to small, for the ABS system that GM used on these trucks, IDK.

 

[shovelbill]

We all have our own opinions, and experience. Some people here believe that if GM uses something then they have put a lot of R&D into it, so it must be be best to replace parts with what is OE. If that was fact, there would be no after market parts. Some after market parts are a lot better than OE and some are not. I have always my been the type of person to customize. There are also people here that think that you must follow every single rule and procedure. I was a mechanic at 2 new car dealers in the late 1970 and I know from my own experience, that is not always the case. All the manufacturers do not want you to work on your own vehicle. If you fix something your self, then they did not make money fixing it for you. I did the GMT 800 MC swap on my truck. The peddle is much better, but IMO the truck still is a little hard to stop, just like it was before. I also slammed my brakes several times to make the ABS engage. IMO the ABS reacts a little more intense than before the swap, but not that much more. I have had other cars and trucks that the ABS was as aggressive or even more so. As for liability, well if you do anything to you vehicle that causes an accident or damage to someone else or there property then you are liable for these damages. In today's world, If you have a fender bender, expect to get sued.

when i mentioned the R&D it was to show complete operating system......i'm sure they didn't just throw parts into a mixer and come out with a brake slushie......they've improved on them from '88 through '96....and yet again on the GMT800 series....it's called progression......i have no issue with improving things with the aftermarket and or upgrades......but i don't throw **** at the wall to see what sticks.....trust me, i'm with ya

my Harley's just remotely resemble how they came off the assembly line, but many years of experience and QUALITY aftermarket support has helped.......my concern is for the people that "read something on the internet" and go out and kill that family......it's very hard to impress upon someone sitting at aa screen the importance of RESEARCH and MORE research.

trust me....in 1984 Harley did NOT equip the Softail model with this front brake:

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[shovelbill]

My 93 WT brakes were much better than my 97 is. When GM went to ABS in 95 or 96, this system sucks. I did the GMT 800 MC swap, and the peddle is much better, but I don't find the truck stops much better than before. Maybe the calipers and,or the pads are to small, for the ABS system that GM used on these trucks, IDK.

the first year or 3 of almost ANY "new and improved" setup usually has it's bugs. especially when they want to rush it market......they got the 1996 system working pretty good by 2001.....or there-a-boot....and they gave it a new body, frame and engine too! LOL

 

[df2x4]

Like Michael said, the brakes on these trucks really aren't that bad if maintained properly. I see a lot of people on here complaining about their brakes who will openly admit they've never been properly bled with a Tech-2 or equivalent GM scan tool. That is STEP ONE to functional brakes on these trucks. I personally do not trust the "slam on the pedal on jack stands" method to get all the air out of the ABS system.

I will admit that there is more travel in the pedals than my other vehicles before anything starts to happen, but if you just trust that they'll stop you once you get past that point you won't have any issues. Both of my trucks have been in the family since new, and I've never been scared of the brakes in either of them. Well, except maybe the time I blew a rear line on the Suburban coming to a stop with a brand new BMW M5 in front of me... E-brake worked, though!

The most I would ever consider doing to the brakes on either of my trucks would be some fancy pads/shoes, maybe a set of slotted (not drilled) rotors.

 

[kennythewelder]

when i mentioned the R&D it was to show complete operating system......i'm sure they didn't just throw parts into a mixer and come out with a brake slushie......they've improved on them from '88 through '96....and yet again on the GMT800 series....it's called progression......i have no issue with improving things with the aftermarket and or upgrades......but i don't throw **** at the wall to see what sticks.....trust me, i'm with ya

my Harley's just remotely resemble how they came off the assembly line, but many years of experience and QUALITY aftermarket support has helped.......my concern is for the people that "read something on the internet" and go out and kill that family......it's very hard to impress upon someone sitting at aa screen the importance of RESEARCH and MORE research.

trust me....in 1984 Harley did NOT equip the Softail model with this front brake:

You must be registered for see images attach

X2,,, Its just that the manufacture is under pressure to comply with rules and regs, not to mention putting out a quality product in a limited time.